Noise from Skate Board Ramps

[athomas236]

Dear All,

I live in a small village in the UK that has a skate board ramp that is causing a big nuisance to nearby residents. The garden fence of one resident being just 3 metres from the ramp.

Does anyone know any regulations or Codes that apply in such circumstances. The Parish Council have been ignoring the problem for the last seven years and the Environmental Department of the Local District Council will not overrule the Parish Council even though it recognises that there is a problem.

Best regards,

athomas236

 

[Hoxton]

I live in a village in the UK also, and know of no national official guide on skate parks.

A quick search found the attached from Stroud which may help.

Looks like you have a tough run. I fail to see why your local Environmental Health Department fail to act.
Here in Scarborough, our EHD stopped a sea defence contractor working 24/7 when they had permission to do so from the same council! This was due to residents’ noise complaints.

So, unless you have ready done so, go in strength to your parish council meetings; get elected to it; enlist help from your local councillor, Member of Parliament etc.

Does the site have planning permission? If not, why not? If it does, has it got specific permission for a skate park?
Do you or anyone know a noise consultant? He could help.

In our village, we defeated an application for a windfarm by getting a group together and getting a plan organised. I am an electrical engineer, but get involved in noise issues, so I read up on the noise issues. I found inconsistencies in the first UK site noise test of the USA manufactured turbine. This was one of the points in our case.

Good luck.

Let us know how you get on. Hope someone from the site can help you more than I can.

 

[IRstuff]

It's not the ramp that's the problem; it's the noise from the bearings. Skateboard bearings are often not nicely sealed and pre-loaded, since the objective is to maximize rolling performance. Not to mention that the bearings are usually attached to a structure that's conductive to resonating at audio frequencies, i.e., the board itself. And, the board and the ground make for a nice resonant space as well. Clearly, if the skateboards were eliminated, the ramps would make no noise of their own.

TTFN
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Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

 

[GregLocock]

I suspect they are complaining about the repetitive clonk-clonk as the boards are 180'd or jumped rather than the rolling noise from the bearings.





Cheers

Greg Locock


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[Tmoose]

So the parish built a skate park for the choir and alter boys to use? And they use it? Around here some town built parks don't get much use at all. Too hard to text and shred at the same time I guess.

based on the construction municipal skate ramps I've seen in Massachusetts USA I envision a bunch of noise being radiated by large plywood panels.

Page 78 here -

http://www.bksv.com/doc/bn1299.pdf

As to guidelines and laws

 

[athomas236]

Dear All,

Thank you for your comments and replies. Please accept apologies for being so slow in responding.

I attach some photographs that show the general layout of the skate ramps. There are two quarter pipe ramps at each end with the central section comprising a spine, double ramp and a low ramp. The steel plates that form the surface of the ramps are 0.12 inch thick and are backed by 0.375 inch plywood except for the platforms that form the half pipe ramps which are 0.75 inches.

The Parish Council claim that the double ramp section is insulated. I have spoken to a local insulation company who say they donated Rockwool type attic insulation but did not install it.

I have made some "tapping" tests of the double ramp section and marked the ramps according to my findings. Where the tapping with a hammer gave gave a dull noise I have assumed that the insulation is fitted closely to the backing plywood and marked the area "I". Where the tapping has given a tinny noise I have assumed that the insulation is not closely fitted and marked the area as "NI".

If you can offer any further comments or guidance this would be appreciated.

Best regards,

athomas236

 

[GregLocock]

Rockwool will be borderline useless for low frequency noise. I don't agree with your test method.

a) describe the noise you are objecting to.

b) identify which maneuvers are synchronised with it
c) measure the frequency(s) of the sound (there is a good android app for that called Spectrum Analyzer.
d) do your hammer test on the appropriate ramp and see if you can excite the same frequencies.



Cheers

Greg Locock


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[Tmoose]

I see many large radiating panels/ sounding boards.

I'm not sure A little fluff between the steel and plywood would be of benefit. In a large enclosed space maybe to reduce reverberant noise build up. But the entire top surface is available to be a swell loudspeaker.

I picture the steel plate was to provide a smooth, flexible (to create curves) yet wear resistant surface, and the plywood is thin to allow creating necessary curves.
The steel (angles?) supporting the plywood is quite widely spaced.

I would have bonded the carefully prepared steel plate to the carefully prepared plywood with a nearly continuous application of structural adhesive and extensive clamping or a hundred sand bags.

 

[athomas236]

Dear Both,

Thank you for your responses.

What I am trying to do is prove that the Parish Council are wrong when they say that the double ramp is insulated which is why I thought a simple hammer test would be sufficient. Apart from removing the plywood side panels from the double ramp and looking inside, can you suggest another test that could achieve my aim.

The only place where insulation is claimed to be is in the space under the double ramp. The steel plates and plywood sheets are held to the steel frame by rivets, of these about 10 to 15% have fallen out.

Best Regards,

athomas236

 

[Hoxton]

My experience is with noise reduction on generating sets, and similar plant, although I do not claim to be an expert in noise.

Looking at these ramps, they seem to be excellent noise creating structures! I fail to see how mineral wool on the underside will reduce the noise. I agree with sandbags, with an infill of loose sand. Even then there will be noise from the steel surface and from the impacted of the skateboard wheels with the ramp edge at the concrete floor.

Were these structures really designed as skateboard ramps? I mean designed by a competent engineer. Rivets falling out means to me that the structure is flexing - indicative of a deficient design. It looks to me like someone took a sketch down to the local fabricating shop and said "make this please". Who has this site insured?

I looked again for UK standards and could find a BSI guide on playgrounds, but that is mainly about risk assessment (which starts another area of concern.......).

On the internet, I found a playground designer promoting concrete for skateboard ramps as "being much quieter than steel or wood"

Googling "playground noise" found several UK hits, including a playground in Bakewell, Derbyshire at which the local council reduced the opening hours after ONE complaint of excessive noise!

Have you thought of getting a phone app for noise measurement? There are good and bad, so googling is required, unless we have advice from the forum.

 

[Tmoose]

Hi Hoxton,
My reference to sandbags was to "clamp" the steel sheet to the plywood during gluing.

Sorry for the confusion.

Dan T

 

[Hoxton]

Tmoose , now I see!

Still think filling with sand or something would help.

 

[drawoh]

athomas236,

The skateboard park in my neighbourhood is all concrete, and it is located some distance away from people's homes. All we need to worry about is lawsuits.

Is this a skateboard issue, or a noise issue? Are there not local laws about noise and other nuisances in a residential area?

Is the skateboard park privately owned, or was it put there by the city, like ours? If it is privately owned, the owner should fix the problem. If it is the city, you should call your alderman or councillor.

--
JHG

 

[3DDave]

These ramps look to be built the same way noise producing items are.

Thin, flexible membrane. Stiff mounting frame. Much like a gong or a drumhead.

Some noise can be cut down by attaching side panels to prevent transmission from the back side, but replacing them with concrete versions would be the best.

 

[SomptingGuy]

I get the impression here that the skateboard ramps were probably a Parish Council project. That's the scale of things that they have funds for. That said, the members are probably very proud of their achievement and might see the objectors as the kind of folk who complain but never get involved. Realise that the ramps are probably at the extreme limit of their budget already and suggesting that they be replaced with more expensive items isn't going to be received well.

As a local resident (and engineer), "Why didn't you?" might better be replaced with "How can I can help you?"

Most parish councils (for those who don't know, Parish councils form the lowest level of local government)comprise local people who give their own time for the benefit of their community. Full of willing people, not necessarily those with engineering skills for engineering projects.

- Steve

 

[GregLocock]

Yes, my first thought was NIMBY.

Rather more usefully, can we suggest ways to cheaply reduce the annoyance? Or should we enforce a curfew so that the lads and ladettes can go back to keying cars, spraying graffiti, knocking each other up, drinking meths and all the other traditional pastimes?



Cheers

Greg Locock


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[athomas236]

Dear All,

Many thanks again for all your suggestions and comments which are helpful and thought provoking.

The issue of noise associated with the skate ramp has been running for seven years. Although I have known about the issue for a number of years I was not aware about the nature of the problem until the end of July 2014 when I attended a full Parish Council meeting and witnessed the discourteous way all the affected residents at the meeting were treated. The residents were told to come back to the next Playing Fields committee.

Following the full meeting I inspected the skate ramp and returned to the Playing Fields committee meeting at the beginning of September 2014 and read a statement to the meeting as an engineer saying that I thought the vibration of the thin plywood and sheet steel were significant factors in the noise produced and suggested ways to reduce the noise. My comments were dismissed with counter statements saying the Rockwool insulation in the double ramp section and the near by acoustic fence were sufficient. These points have been repeated a many times over the last seven years. I have since written to the Parish Council re-stating my views and received only an acknowledgement. When standing on the skate ramp it is possible to see over the acoustic fence.

I have asked for a copy of a letter from the District Council to Parish Council which is, I believe, a belated attempt to put pressure on Parish Council to resolve this matter. I have been told this letter is private.

I have looked at the planning approval that was given to build the to houses near the skate ramp which shows that the skate ramp existed at the time of the planning approval. The planning approval shows the following:

1. No Environmental Assessment for the development was carried out.
2. The acoustic fence installed was only intended to reduce noise from the existing pavilion, play area and scout hut. The height of this acoustic fence was set at 2 metres and the fence details accepted by the District Council.
3. There was no consideration of noise from the skate board ramp and its impact on near by residents.
4. There was no consideration of the height and type of acoustic fence needed to reduce noise from the skate ramp to acceptable levels.
5. An acoustic fence has been installed at the boundaries of residents nearest the skate ramp. There is no evidence in the planning documents that this fence is suitable for the properties near to the skate ramp.

I am taken with the idea of filling the voids with either sand or concrete and will be contacting the original supplier this week to discuss. If any one has any technical information that may help with consideration of these options I would be pleased to receive.

With regard to the comments made by SomptingGuy I make the following replies:
1. The skate ramps were provided by the local Police Association and are owned by the Parish Council. In addition, the Parish Council has some £40 000 set aside to upgrade the play equipment.
2. I have been involved in the village for many years having been a governor and chairman of governors, member of PTA committee, member of Scouts committee, member and chairman of a charity for the elderly and booking secretary, member and chairman of the village hall.

Best regards,

athomas236

 

[1gibson]

Can you create cells on the inside of the panels (plastic sheeting and duct tape) then fill with polyurethane expanding foam? What if this were to happen in the middle of the night on one panel, so it could be tested?

 

[Hoxton]

Well! I suggest the following:

1) search for PPG24. This the England planning guidance on noise. There is a table of permitted noise - this document is for guidance when planning new houses, to keep the away from existing noise (eg roads). I think that this document is still valid, as we now have a national planning framework.

2) you do not say if the park has planning permission. It may not need it, as the rules seem a little vague and seem to be up to local enforcement. Talk to your local planning department. I think that planning by default takes effect after 10 years.

3) Go for a freedom of information request on the letter from the district council.

4) Complain to the Environmental Health Department about the noise.

5) I could not possibly suggest creeping in one night and filling the ramps full of plastic foam....... And I do not think that it would fully cure the problem.

6) Try and get the park moved away from the houses.

Whilst there are engineering solutions, I think that you have to go the above route to achieve anything.

Do not give up. When we turned up for the first parish council meeting on our wind farm, we were subjected to a pre meeting rant from the chairman, who told us that renewable energy was the future and we had to accept it. The developer took it to appeal, and lost.

Good luck. Let us know how it turns out