New EIT Advice 12

[civilengineergurl]

I have been working as an EIT for about a year and a half. Lately, I have been feeling as if I am not learning as fast as other EITs. I have even questioned whether I should have even chosen this profession. I don't think my supervisor gives me challenging tasks, because he knows that in the end I'll be asking questions and he'll end up having to do things himself anyway. Please advise.

 

[GregLocock]

Why not ask your supervisor if this is the case?

meanwhile...

Do you make stupid mistakes because you don't check your work properly?

Or do you not figure out sensible solutions?

Or do you find it hard to implement those solutions?

Or do you struggle with learning the necessary techniques?



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[AggieYank]

engineergrad2004.

As an EIT myself, I believe the best way to learn or improve in general is to take one thing at a time, and learn everything possible about it, even going above what is immediately necessary. For example, one of my first jobs was to do a wood framed building. I bought a textbook on it, read just about the whole thing, and am now very confident on it. My next project involved load bearing CMU walls. Having never done CMU, I bought another text book, studied up, and am now fairly proficient at it. Next thing was forkift loads on a suspended slab. Same story. My next textbook is tilt walls. When my boss finally hands me down a tilt wall job, I don't want to have to ask him the simple stuff.

By learning a lot about a little, many times, I've become in general a fairly decent engineer. I've learned a lot through on the job experience, and a lot on my own, and am of course still learning.

If I was you, I'd make an effort to learn as much as I can about each task I have. If you don't enjoy it, it's probably time for something else, but I wouldn't worry too much about the fact that you're still learning.

 

[debodine]

AggieYank:

I like your method. While I am no longer an EIT (sixteen years now) I use that same process. After determining what is new to me in a particular project, I immerse myself in textbooks, question/answer sessions with experienced engineers, review of previous projects that included those tasks, review of applicable industry standards, etc. I am not a particularly fast engineer, but I rarely miss the critical issues that can make or break a project. Good for you, and good advice you gave. Gave you a star.

debodine

 

[debodine]

engineergrad2004:

While I don't know GregLocock except through this Eng_tips site, I have watched him for quite a while in the forums. He is right on target in his ability to dig down to the basic issues. I recommend you take the time to answer his questions, even if only to yourself. Even better would be to send him the answers and see where his next post leads.

I supervise seven engineers, and three are EITs. Each of them can answer yes to one of his four questions, specifically questions one, three and four. I am working with each to overcome these areas, and I have no doubt they will because they take initiative and learn what they can on their own, similar to AggieYank. I only have to guide and encourage, and occasionally provide detailed explanations.

That should tell you that GregLocock knows engineering and mentoring. At least from my perspective he does. )

debodine

 

[GregLocock]

Thanks for the confidence. One of the failings where I work is that mentoring in a technical sense rarely happens. I remember how useful it was to me when I was starting out.

These days it seems very hard to justify the time taken to read the old papers, and work through some examples in the textbooks, but, if you don't, you'll never have that annoying (to project managers) mixture of gut feeling and in-depth understanding and confidence that will stop people getting killed, or, rather less important, time and money being wasted.

Because, when the chips are down, that is the fundamental reason why professional engineers are there.



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[civilengineergurl]

Thanks everyone. Your responses have really helped me to begin putting things into perspective. In response to GregLocock's questions:


Do you make stupid mistakes because you don't check your work properly? Yes. I feel that I have squandered too much time trying to make sense of what I was asked to do (even after my supervisor has provided a thorough explanation) and I end up rushing and making stupid mistakes.

Or do you not figure out sensible solutions? I feel that my supervisor does not have the confidence in me (or perhaps feels that I am not ready) to start assigning me tasks that require more design. However, I think if today I were asked to do something that required more (than I have been doing), I would do as much as I could and then seek assistance.

Or do you find it hard to implement those solutions?

Or do you struggle with learning the necessary techniques? Some things are more difficult than others, but in general, no.

AggieYank, I have already started to look into buying some books that will help. Thanks for the tip!

 

[Ashereng]

angieyank,

Wow. If all the juniors ... never mind junior ... if all of the people in our discipline (engineering) had your "get up and go", we would rock.


debodine,

It is a coincidence that you mention mentoring. I had lunch with some of my collegues, and we noted one fundamental difference between when I was starting out and now - "Trust". I trusted my mentor back then. I trusted them to teach me the right things, to do things the right way, and not to "waylay" me. I don't think today's EIT's and engineers starting out fee that they have that luxury. Mentoring requires a two-way trust. I think in many instances, they don't have people that they can trust to be their mentors.

I think we more experienced engineers need to make it more welcoming for the less experienced to approach us - for help, for support, for just chewing the fat as it were.

engineergrad2004,

You mentioned that you "questioned whether I should have even chosen this profession". What has changed? What was your original reason for chosing this profession? Are the reasons still valid? If they are, maybe giving up on the professoin is not the thing to do - a change of venue (employer) may aleviate your sense of not going anywhere.

Or, is it a matter of the type of work? Not everyone is cut out to enjoy engineering work. It is not exactly a glamourous job - have you ever noticed that engineers are only portrayed on TV and in movies as causing a problem, or not knowing how to solve a problem? If this is the case, then maybe a career change will work for you.

My advise is to determine whether the cause is related to the profession, or to the employer/environment. Once you know that, at least you have a direction to your resolution.

 

[GregLocock]

"Do you make stupid mistakes because you don't check your work properly? Yes. I feel that I have squandered too much time trying to make sense of what I was asked to do (even after my supervisor has provided a thorough explanation) and I end up rushing and making stupid mistakes."

Take your time. He knows you are an EIT. I'd far rather have the right solution tomorrow than a mistake ridden (essentially untrustworthy) piece of work today. I used to get regular ear bashings at uni because my calculations were impossible to follow, albeit right (mostly). Using a package like Mathcad, or if you are stony broke, Scilab or Octave, will at least force you to lay your calculations out in a readable and checkable form.

"Or do you not figure out sensible solutions? I feel that my supervisor does not have the confidence in me (or perhaps feels that I am not ready) to start assigning me tasks that require more design. However, I think if today I were asked to do something that required more (than I have been doing), I would do as much as I could and then seek assistance."

Well, given your answer to the first question, he is unlikely to ask for original solutions if your calculations are routinely rushed, and wrong.

"Or do you find it hard to implement those solutions?" Ok, we'll wait and see on that one.

"Or do you struggle with learning the necessary techniques? Some things are more difficult than others, but in general, no."

Good. Remember you have started your career in one of the few professions where hard objective thought is required almost as a continuous requirement. Getting a reputation for being fast and right is great, but slower, and right, is fine. Fast and wrong is occasionally useful, in some environments, but I don't think engineering in general is one of them.



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[HVAC68]

I suggest the following :

1. Shed your ego, if you have one. This helps in asking questions.

2. Shed your inhibitions, if you have - Don't worry about what the other guy will think. Your focus is to learn and if you don't learn now by asking questions, once you grow older and more experienced, you will find it more difficult to ask questions.

3. Spend some time checking old designs, files - I have learnt a lot this way.

4. Do a critical self-analysis. Be your own critic and analyse what you have learnt/done in the past month or 2. Keep reviewing yourself periodically. Do it constructively. Don't try and find excuses why you couldn't do something.

5. Last, but not the least - Talk to your supervisor. Ask him how you are faring and how you can do better and whether you are meeting his expectations or not. Choose an appropriate time to do this.

Good luck.

HVAC68

 

[kchayfie]

If you watch anyone trying to learn new skills, they learn a lot of new stuff really quickly and then become demoralised and frustrated as the learning curve flattens off and they try to learn harder, more complicated stuff while still trying to process and consolidate the new skills they've just picked up. But then they find a breakthrough and start improving their skills again and wonder what it was they were finding so hard. Some of these reality shows on TV are editted to show this - the frustrating bit in the middle and then the triumphant end makes great television!

Its doubly demoralising if you've reached a plateau while others around you are still on the steep bit of their learning curve but you need to focus on your own skills right now. Focus on what you can do, make sure you do it well and be confident in the things you've learnt in the last 18 months. Follow the advice above to plug the gaps in what you need to know to do your immediate tasks and then one day soon you might wake up to realise that you've just solved the most challenging problem and you did it without even breaking a sweat (which is really the problem time because that's when the real mistakes get made - when you're overconfident!)

 

[Ashereng]

There is a concept called "satisfysing". I think my prof made up the word.

What the concept attempts to deal with is the fact that we can usually never be 100% sure of our decision, yet we still need to make one, and soon. So, we need to come to a point where we take what we have (since it will satisfy the need vs. being optimised) in the amount of resources (usually time and/or money) we have.

Some people call this the 80/20 rule - althought the % split usually vary.

Fast and Right - This is good. It is also rare.
Slow and Right - This is okay, although you will probably hear it from your manager.
Fast and Wrong - Occasionally useful. I am not so sure I agree. More likely, not so good but by that time, no one remembers (which is still not a good thing).

On Time and Works - This is what usually happens. You have a sub-optimal solution that works, and it took relatively little resources. There is a better way, but I have moved on already.

 

[rholder98]

I wish I'd had this forum when I was in engineergrad2004's shoes!

My favorite quote from my first boss: "If I seem annoyed when you ask questions, it's because I am." Needless to say, she wasn't much of a mentor. I stayed there 4 1/2 years, but didn't feel ready to get my license. Less than a year later, at a larger firm with more than one PE (who all had better people skills), I was licensed and much more confident.

Engineergrad2004: I hope you take all these comments to heart. Hang in there; it will get better. Good luck!

 

[astructurale]

GREAT responses.

Nothing to add except,

Hang in there, and most of us have been in your shoes...some longer than others. It was 3 years into my career before I began to feel more at ease about being an engineer. It's a big responsiblity, so your concerns are valid. It takes time to build confidence and experience. It will happen for you as long as you keep trying your best. I've been at it more than 7 years now, and I'm still learning. This is a career where you can keep learning your entire life and never know it all, which can make for an exciting and sometimes exhausting career.

 

[rmw]

When I was am EIT, I knew when the Chief Engineer (a PHD/ME) had reached his limit with me when he said "because I sit in here and you sit out there" usually with great emphasis. He sent me retreating back to my desk many times.

I had moved from my private office to a vacant drafting table right outside his door (no one else wanted to sit there) so I could hear everything that he said as he usually made no attempt to lower his voice unless it was necessary to do so.

I learned plenty just listening to him conducting his everyday business with the other personnel in the engineering department that he supervised, engineers, designers, drafters, and other misc staff.

As well, I could hear all the other conversations among the designers, drafters, and their supervisor. We were all working on similar projects.

I learned a bunch and learned it quickly sitting there, and eventually moved back into my own office.

One of the first things he gigged me on was a lifting lug I put on a pressure vessel that I was designing. I only eyeballed it, and went with what my gut said, and he asked "how do you know it will hold?" I said "it will" and he said "prove it, where are your calcs?" I didn't have any. I quickly went and did some, and sure enough, my design was adequate, but I learned that guessing did not cut it. I never was caught without calcs again. I have never forgotten the lesson.

He was the final sign off on my PE application at the end of my EIT period, and by that time, I had earned his trust to do projects without close supervision from him.

But I would be the first to say that it was rocky at first.

rmw

 

[Ashereng]

We've all been through it, being an EIT. I have a quote from one of my old bosses that I like to share, since I think it is memorable, and unfortunately, still applys.

"If you see the water level above your head, I suggest you extend your snorkel."

This was said when I thought I was in deep trouble and in way over my head, no pun intended. He evidently didn't think the water was deep enough and wanted me to keep going. In the end, he was right.

 

[GregLocock]

Definitely. The problems you really struggle with are the ones you remember. For reasons I can't remember I didn't have access to the right books on two plane balancing, so I had to work it all out myself. I wasn't on an especially tight timeleine, but now I look back, those three pages of equations are rather embarassing, given that it is a two line problem!



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[KLee777]

"If I seem annoyed when you ask questions, it's because I am."

"because I sit in here and you sit out there"

Man, I am SO thankful for my boss right now! You guys had it tough! Geez!

Engineergrad, I too am from the class of '04. I still feel inept on a daily basis, but I don't let that stop me. I do exactly what AggieYank did--study it on my own time, at my own pace. I read codes, standards, forums such as this, textbooks, technical papers, ask our piping designers (their experience is invaluable)...you name it. It's not always easy to do, especially when you just got out of the habit of studying every day.

I also go to our local ASME chapter meetings when the topic of discussion is something I am working on, have worked with, or will work on someday. That's always a bit uncomfortable for me since I'm not only the youngest by about 30 years, I'm also the only woman there. But I do it so that I have a leg-up on my next project. My boss really appreciates this because it shows my eagerness to learn.

I am very lucky to have a great boss. Is he a great mentor? No. However, an older engineer, a PE, came to work with us about three months after I'd arrived. We had a very rocky work relationship at first due to communication issues, but I just did my very best to educate myself as much as possible, slow down and "get it right the first time," and back check *everything* before handing it over to him. As long as I didn't make stupid mistakes from rushing, he didn't mind that perhaps my solution was incorrect--he'd just kindly help me fix it. He came to respect my work ethic and the fact that I was humble enough to ask 2,000 questions a day (even the "stupid" ones). I trust him as a mentor, even though he's not always right either--and believe me, I question his answers, too.

Hang in there. Someday I hope our generation remembers what these days are like so we can be better "mentors" to our up and coming EITs.

 

[GregLocock]

" but I just did my very best to educate myself as much as possible, slow down and "get it right the first time," and back check *everything* before handing it over to him. "

Bingo. Well done.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[Ashereng]

... but I just did my very best to educate myself as much as possible, slow down and "get it right the first time," and back check *everything* before handing it over to ...

We could all do more of this.