I'm wondering what other folks think about this. Do you think that we should have 1 PE license good for the whole USA? Or shall we keep the current state license sysytem? I'm wondering if a single national license has ever been pursued with the government and if not, how would one go about fighting for it?
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National PE License? 11
- Thread starter EddyC
- Start date
Your idea is probably a good one but personally, I would hate to see it happen.
The down side is that you would have to work and communicate with the federal government --- it could take years to even get scheduled to take the test for licensure.
I say the feds have their fingers in too many pots already. Feds should be concerned only with the types of things they were originally authorized, i.e. foreign affairs, defence of the general population, inter-state commerce etc.
I think they should stay out of professional, social, religious, and personal aspects of life. After all, why would you want the most inefficient organization ever implemented having a say in your professional life.
Have a Great Day
ietech
The down side is that you would have to work and communicate with the federal government --- it could take years to even get scheduled to take the test for licensure.
I say the feds have their fingers in too many pots already. Feds should be concerned only with the types of things they were originally authorized, i.e. foreign affairs, defence of the general population, inter-state commerce etc.
I think they should stay out of professional, social, religious, and personal aspects of life. After all, why would you want the most inefficient organization ever implemented having a say in your professional life.
Have a Great Day
ietech
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1
- #4
Anything, including technical stuff, that goes from state control to federal control sounds like a bad idea at just the mention of it. The most obvious problem would be loss of local jurisdictional requirements. For example, the western states have special requirements for seismic considerations. Ditto Alaska for permafrost issues.
Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
The NCEE has a program that will make it easy if you want to practice in several states. They help keep your records up to date and will send copies to a state you want to register in.
Here's their website.
Here's their website.
Do you think the states want to relinquish the income from licensing fees? Be careful what you wish for ... when hunting waterfowl you usually have to buy both a state and a federal duck stamp. If the federal government thinks they can make money on a national engineering licensing fee in addition to the state fees people pay already, you'll be emptying your pockets with both hands. Let's not give them any ideas.
xnuke
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xnuke,
I doubt the income from PE licensing is a significant factor. In most states the fees go to just the PE Board to sustain it. In one state I pay only $25 for two years. That ain't much.
Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
I doubt the income from PE licensing is a significant factor. In most states the fees go to just the PE Board to sustain it. In one state I pay only $25 for two years. That ain't much.
Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
Look at Tennesse they have a PROFESSIONAL PRIVILEGE TAX
of $400 annually ontop of the the PE Licensing fee.
professional privilege tax is levied on the privilege of having an active license to practice certain professions, businesses or occupations listed below:
(1) Persons registered as lobbyists pursuant to
Tenn. Code Ann. Section 3-6-104;
(2) Persons licensed or registered under Title
48, Chapter 2, as:
(a) brokers;
(b) agents; and
(c) investment advisors;
(3) Persons licensed or registered under Title
62 as:
(a) accountants;
(b) engineers;
(c) architects;
(d) landscape architects; and
(e) brokers, as defined in
Tenn. Code Ann. Section 62-13-102(2).
(4) Persons licensed or registered under Title
63 as:
(a) chiropractors;
(b) dentists;
(c) physicians;
(d) pharmacists;
(e) psychologists;
(f) optometrists;
(g) veterinarians;
(h) audiologists;
(i) osteopathic physicians;
(j) podiatrists;
(k) speech pathologists; and
(l) sports agents
(5) Persons licensed as attorneys by the
Supreme Court of Tennessee.
of $400 annually ontop of the the PE Licensing fee.
professional privilege tax is levied on the privilege of having an active license to practice certain professions, businesses or occupations listed below:
(1) Persons registered as lobbyists pursuant to
Tenn. Code Ann. Section 3-6-104;
(2) Persons licensed or registered under Title
48, Chapter 2, as:
(a) brokers;
(b) agents; and
(c) investment advisors;
(3) Persons licensed or registered under Title
62 as:
(a) accountants;
(b) engineers;
(c) architects;
(d) landscape architects; and
(e) brokers, as defined in
Tenn. Code Ann. Section 62-13-102(2).
(4) Persons licensed or registered under Title
63 as:
(a) chiropractors;
(b) dentists;
(c) physicians;
(d) pharmacists;
(e) psychologists;
(f) optometrists;
(g) veterinarians;
(h) audiologists;
(i) osteopathic physicians;
(j) podiatrists;
(k) speech pathologists; and
(l) sports agents
(5) Persons licensed as attorneys by the
Supreme Court of Tennessee.
Aside all the little problems (state vs feds), would it be nice to have a general licence that allows to practice where you go? Nothing can prevent local organizations to include specifics in the general practice (seismics, electrical, safety).
After all we travel and practice on the entire continent (Canada, USA and Mexico). Hopefully the time will come.
After all we travel and practice on the entire continent (Canada, USA and Mexico). Hopefully the time will come.
stel8,
As one that practices in many places, there are no impediments that I have encountered. Obtaining a license in another state is not an impediment, it's appropriate. Yes, the forms are a pain, but the NCEES organization makes it much easier. I think a federal PE license combined with something local (ie; seismic, permafrost, etc) is worse that just local. Again, keep the feds out as there is no apparent added value..
Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
As one that practices in many places, there are no impediments that I have encountered. Obtaining a license in another state is not an impediment, it's appropriate. Yes, the forms are a pain, but the NCEES organization makes it much easier. I think a federal PE license combined with something local (ie; seismic, permafrost, etc) is worse that just local. Again, keep the feds out as there is no apparent added value..
Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
I agree with Steve.
I believe that all States use the NCEES approved exams, except for Ohio in Welding Engineering, and with the NCEES record, in essence you have a national PE though you can not pratice without a state issued license.
With the "model law" NCEES record one can obtain an engineering license in a few hours, Ohio for example.
Individual states must remain in control:
[ol]
[li] Local conditions, for example the soil conditions in Alaska are different than Delaware and the seismic conditons in California are different than Maine.
[/li] [li] Bidding processes are different.
[/li] [li] The requirements of what must be sealed/stamped are different
[/li][/ol]
I have never had any implements, I am licensed in multiple states and counties.
I believe that all States use the NCEES approved exams, except for Ohio in Welding Engineering, and with the NCEES record, in essence you have a national PE though you can not pratice without a state issued license.
With the "model law" NCEES record one can obtain an engineering license in a few hours, Ohio for example.
Individual states must remain in control:
[ol]
[li] Local conditions, for example the soil conditions in Alaska are different than Delaware and the seismic conditons in California are different than Maine.
[/li] [li] Bidding processes are different.
[/li] [li] The requirements of what must be sealed/stamped are different
[/li][/ol]
I have never had any implements, I am licensed in multiple states and counties.
Rich2001.
As I look down the list of licensed professions, I noted "brokers". Isn't is great to regulated by the same board that controls pawn brokers!
Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
As I look down the list of licensed professions, I noted "brokers". Isn't is great to regulated by the same board that controls pawn brokers!
Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
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3
- #13
I have a provincial drivers license. With it I can drive almost anywhere in the world, certainly anywhere in North America. If I get a speeding ticket, it is reported by the US state to my provincial authorities and the demerits go against my provincial license.
Traffic laws, testing standards etc are all different as one travels from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. All other jurisdictions have no say in what I have to do to get a Manitoba license, but they recognize my license. If I drive improperly I can cause damage and injuries. I may be acting correctly by the rules of the road in Manitoba but elsewhere where the rules are different this can cause problems. (For example turning right on a red light is legal here but not legal everywhere, I can drive in the UK or Jamaica where they drive on the opposite side of the road. UK residents can drive in Canada.)
I have a provincial license to practice engineering. Once I leave my home province, this license has no meaning. It will allow me to get a different license in another province easily, but it has no recognition in most of the US states.
Why are the two licenses treated differently? Why won’t say South Carolina or Delaware recognize that I am a professional engineer? They recognize my driver’s license but not my engineering license.
Almost everyone has a driver’s license. Politicians recognize that the voters want agreements on reciprocity simply because North American society is highly mobile. For engineering, where the number of professionals is much less than the number of drivers the popular support for universal licensing is simply not there.
The real reason is that the local engineers simply want to protect their backyard from outsider’s doing business there. It’s simply restraint of trade. In Saskatchewan, which has some of the strictest rules on getting a Permit to Consult (a second license in addition to the personal license) I have had fellow engineers freely state that they like the trade protection offered by the process.
If we had agreements like those in effect for driver’s licenses where another jurisdiction could exercise discipline against an engineer and that the home jurisdiction would recognize that discipline, they there is no valid reason not to have national or even international engineering licenses.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
Traffic laws, testing standards etc are all different as one travels from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. All other jurisdictions have no say in what I have to do to get a Manitoba license, but they recognize my license. If I drive improperly I can cause damage and injuries. I may be acting correctly by the rules of the road in Manitoba but elsewhere where the rules are different this can cause problems. (For example turning right on a red light is legal here but not legal everywhere, I can drive in the UK or Jamaica where they drive on the opposite side of the road. UK residents can drive in Canada.)
I have a provincial license to practice engineering. Once I leave my home province, this license has no meaning. It will allow me to get a different license in another province easily, but it has no recognition in most of the US states.
Why are the two licenses treated differently? Why won’t say South Carolina or Delaware recognize that I am a professional engineer? They recognize my driver’s license but not my engineering license.
Almost everyone has a driver’s license. Politicians recognize that the voters want agreements on reciprocity simply because North American society is highly mobile. For engineering, where the number of professionals is much less than the number of drivers the popular support for universal licensing is simply not there.
The real reason is that the local engineers simply want to protect their backyard from outsider’s doing business there. It’s simply restraint of trade. In Saskatchewan, which has some of the strictest rules on getting a Permit to Consult (a second license in addition to the personal license) I have had fellow engineers freely state that they like the trade protection offered by the process.
If we had agreements like those in effect for driver’s licenses where another jurisdiction could exercise discipline against an engineer and that the home jurisdiction would recognize that discipline, they there is no valid reason not to have national or even international engineering licenses.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
Mr. Kitson,
A brief response...
"Why are the two licenses treated differently? Why won’t say South Carolina or Delaware recognize that I am a professional engineer? They recognize my driver’s license but not my engineering license."
They will recognize your license, skills and experience, but you have do more than drive across the state line. The PE application process is very friendly on the reciprocity side. Many states provide a temporary permit upon submittal of an application. It's not drive thru service, but it's next best thing.
"The real reason is that the local engineers simply want to protect their backyard from outsider’s doing business there. It’s simply restraint of trade."
I'm a local engineer and I don't feel that way. I know a lot of local engineers and they don't feel that way. I'm a PE in a number of states and have never even seen even a hint if that attitude. I do not believe that you are correct about that statement.
Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
A brief response...
"Why are the two licenses treated differently? Why won’t say South Carolina or Delaware recognize that I am a professional engineer? They recognize my driver’s license but not my engineering license."
They will recognize your license, skills and experience, but you have do more than drive across the state line. The PE application process is very friendly on the reciprocity side. Many states provide a temporary permit upon submittal of an application. It's not drive thru service, but it's next best thing.
"The real reason is that the local engineers simply want to protect their backyard from outsider’s doing business there. It’s simply restraint of trade."
I'm a local engineer and I don't feel that way. I know a lot of local engineers and they don't feel that way. I'm a PE in a number of states and have never even seen even a hint if that attitude. I do not believe that you are correct about that statement.
Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
RDK,
Looking through the review board minutes from my state, quite a few Canadian licensees are also granted PE's. The one's that have a PE denied tended to be those with insufficient documented experience. Some states will be more familiar with Canadian licensing requirements and practices than others and I would think that would make a difference in ease of attaining a PE.
Regards,
Looking through the review board minutes from my state, quite a few Canadian licensees are also granted PE's. The one's that have a PE denied tended to be those with insufficient documented experience. Some states will be more familiar with Canadian licensing requirements and practices than others and I would think that would make a difference in ease of attaining a PE.
Regards,
If I can get an US state’s license simply by as asking for it, it is still more hassle than simply setting up practicing engineering in that state.
I can get another provincial license simply by applying for it. I have done so in two other provinces. However I can still drive there with no application process.
The are only three arguments for separate engineering licenses.
The first is “our conditions are different here” Right now it is –20C outside and that is up 10 degrees since the weekend. Most of Canada is under some sort of weather advisory right now. But your Florida driver’s license still allows you to drive on our roads. If that is not vastly different conditions that should require that you be locally licensed then I do not know what is.
My Manitoba license allows me to design buildings anywhere in the province. That includes soil conditions from Red River gumbo, which is a stiff highly plastic clay, to the sand conditions around my home town to the permafrost conditions in the north part of the province.
There is no difference in environmental conditions from Emerson Manitoba to Pembina North Dakota, a distance of 10 kms or so.
Second argument is that local jurisdictions do not have any control over out of jurisdiction licensees. If I get caught speeding in Texas, the fine and demerits are enforceable against my Manitoba driver’s license by mutual agreement. Why cannot a separate engineering agreement along the same lines be developed?
The third argument is that laws differ between the different jurisdictions. They are not that much different as we often believe. NFPA 70 is a carbon copy of the US NEC and the only differences that I can find between those codes and CSA C22, the Canadian Electrical Code is that the CSA code is in metric and the US codes use imperial measurements.
Traffic laws differ more in various jurisdictions. Some places drive on the left side of the road and some drive on the right side. A UK driver’s license is valid in Canada and the US, why not a UK Chartered Engineer status?
As professionals it is our responsibility that we only seal those drawings that we have the knowledge, ability and experience to take professional responsibility for. That would include knowledge of local laws and codes, just like driving requires that we be knowledgeable of the local laws and conditions when we travel.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
I can get another provincial license simply by applying for it. I have done so in two other provinces. However I can still drive there with no application process.
The are only three arguments for separate engineering licenses.
The first is “our conditions are different here” Right now it is –20C outside and that is up 10 degrees since the weekend. Most of Canada is under some sort of weather advisory right now. But your Florida driver’s license still allows you to drive on our roads. If that is not vastly different conditions that should require that you be locally licensed then I do not know what is.
My Manitoba license allows me to design buildings anywhere in the province. That includes soil conditions from Red River gumbo, which is a stiff highly plastic clay, to the sand conditions around my home town to the permafrost conditions in the north part of the province.
There is no difference in environmental conditions from Emerson Manitoba to Pembina North Dakota, a distance of 10 kms or so.
Second argument is that local jurisdictions do not have any control over out of jurisdiction licensees. If I get caught speeding in Texas, the fine and demerits are enforceable against my Manitoba driver’s license by mutual agreement. Why cannot a separate engineering agreement along the same lines be developed?
The third argument is that laws differ between the different jurisdictions. They are not that much different as we often believe. NFPA 70 is a carbon copy of the US NEC and the only differences that I can find between those codes and CSA C22, the Canadian Electrical Code is that the CSA code is in metric and the US codes use imperial measurements.
Traffic laws differ more in various jurisdictions. Some places drive on the left side of the road and some drive on the right side. A UK driver’s license is valid in Canada and the US, why not a UK Chartered Engineer status?
As professionals it is our responsibility that we only seal those drawings that we have the knowledge, ability and experience to take professional responsibility for. That would include knowledge of local laws and codes, just like driving requires that we be knowledgeable of the local laws and conditions when we travel.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
Mr. Kitson,
The privilege extended to licensed drivers from other states or countries is a simply a temporary courtesy extended by the host. I think some international protocol is involved too. However, anyone wishing to stay is typically required to obtain a local license after some period.
Yes, there is more hassle in the PE process. Engineer's who want to practice elsewhere put the PE application on their list of the many things that have to be done. It's not a restriction, it's part of the landscape that I am willing to tolerate. Fortunately, the NCEES system make the process a bit easier.
Oh by the way, I would never disagree that a national PE license would be easier, but as a former Australian PM once stated... "Life wasn't meant to be easy".
Although this thread started as a discussion about a national PE license, are you suggesting that there should be a US-Canada-UK common PE license too?
Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
The privilege extended to licensed drivers from other states or countries is a simply a temporary courtesy extended by the host. I think some international protocol is involved too. However, anyone wishing to stay is typically required to obtain a local license after some period.
Yes, there is more hassle in the PE process. Engineer's who want to practice elsewhere put the PE application on their list of the many things that have to be done. It's not a restriction, it's part of the landscape that I am willing to tolerate. Fortunately, the NCEES system make the process a bit easier.
Oh by the way, I would never disagree that a national PE license would be easier, but as a former Australian PM once stated... "Life wasn't meant to be easy".
Although this thread started as a discussion about a national PE license, are you suggesting that there should be a US-Canada-UK common PE license too?
Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
Mr. Kitson
The charter of the board of registration of North Dakota is to assure the safety of North Dakotans. They have rules to follow as given them by the legislature and they do. Asside from theat I have found them easy to work with and to be very helpful. North Dakota wil require an exam of North Dakota Law. It can be multiple choice or even an interview. They as do most state board rely heavly on your references.
It's not all that difficult to get registered in ND. I have kown people to get a conditional license in 2 or 3 days. With the internet and email it may be even quicker. It might take a trip to Bismarck but you could be working on a project in Pembina by the end of the week. I have worked with engineers from Manitoba who were licensed in North Dakota. The biggest problem they had was some paperwork and a little planning.
We don't really need the feds in our licensing process for a number of reasons. One is that they see the purpose of engineers differently than the States. If engineers were regulated by the feds I can forsee engineers from Florida specifing firelines in NoDak burried 3' below the surface etc.
The charter of the board of registration of North Dakota is to assure the safety of North Dakotans. They have rules to follow as given them by the legislature and they do. Asside from theat I have found them easy to work with and to be very helpful. North Dakota wil require an exam of North Dakota Law. It can be multiple choice or even an interview. They as do most state board rely heavly on your references.
It's not all that difficult to get registered in ND. I have kown people to get a conditional license in 2 or 3 days. With the internet and email it may be even quicker. It might take a trip to Bismarck but you could be working on a project in Pembina by the end of the week. I have worked with engineers from Manitoba who were licensed in North Dakota. The biggest problem they had was some paperwork and a little planning.
We don't really need the feds in our licensing process for a number of reasons. One is that they see the purpose of engineers differently than the States. If engineers were regulated by the feds I can forsee engineers from Florida specifing firelines in NoDak burried 3' below the surface etc.
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5
- #19
I do not believe that public safety is being served by requiring registration in individual states. As a practical matter, all that is required is sending the NCEES file and paying a fee. There are a couple exceptions, for example, having to pass a course in cold weather engineering for Alaska. Other than these few exceptions, there is no value added by the additional registration process. It simply takes time, and requires the payment of periodic fees.
There is not only the registration process, but each state can have different regulations governing the practice of engineering. Again, not necessarily serving public safety. For example, in New York, a business corporation cannot practice engineering. Then again, in New Jersey, drivers aren't allowed to pump their own gas, so since when do laws have to make sense.
I don't think this will change, if only because registration of professions, I believe, is part of the state's responsibility (state's rights), not Federal.
So, we will continue to pay fees, etc. to all states we may be registered in. But NCEES does make the process of registering in additional states much easier. Well worth the cost if you plan to register in multiple states.
There is not only the registration process, but each state can have different regulations governing the practice of engineering. Again, not necessarily serving public safety. For example, in New York, a business corporation cannot practice engineering. Then again, in New Jersey, drivers aren't allowed to pump their own gas, so since when do laws have to make sense.
I don't think this will change, if only because registration of professions, I believe, is part of the state's responsibility (state's rights), not Federal.
So, we will continue to pay fees, etc. to all states we may be registered in. But NCEES does make the process of registering in additional states much easier. Well worth the cost if you plan to register in multiple states.
cb4,
"I don't think this will change, if only because registration of professions, I believe, is part of the state's responsibility (state's rights), not Federal."
Very well put cb4! We've can moan and groan all we want about the current situation, but there are bigger, more important issues in our life. I pick states rights and all the priviledges that go with it over the mere convenience of a federal system with one PE license. I have never been upset about the effort necessary to apply fo a PE license in another state.
Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
"I don't think this will change, if only because registration of professions, I believe, is part of the state's responsibility (state's rights), not Federal."
Very well put cb4! We've can moan and groan all we want about the current situation, but there are bigger, more important issues in our life. I pick states rights and all the priviledges that go with it over the mere convenience of a federal system with one PE license. I have never been upset about the effort necessary to apply fo a PE license in another state.
Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
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