My Experience tells me something may be wrong 3

[OHIOMatt]

While getting ready to attend Christmas Eve church service, I brought up the subject of seating choice with my wife. It was not so that we could see or hear better. We attend a church that is fairly old (by American standards). Usually the Christmas Eve service is the most heavily attended of the year, with standing room only. Every square foot of the church has the potential to be occupied.

I have designed retro fit solutions for similar churchs in the past. In these past projects, severe member deterioration was noted during routine eletrical work, AV work, etc. In many of the these cases, the floor systems and roof systems are very near collapse.


So, my issue is this: I directed my wife to select a location that I felt was least likely to experience a failure. Now, I have no knowledge of any structural issues with the church, just past experience with similarly designed structures. Am I being a cautios father and husband, or am I doing something enethical? Since I have this concern, should I volunteer to examine the structure? If I find something, then what?

 

[msquared48]

Every square foot of the church has the potential to be occupied.

Sounds like a potential violation involving the fire marshall at least. What is the maximum occupancy for the room and what was the attendance?

As for the structure, unless you see something very specific relating to life safety, I would not pursue it. Just comparing to similar structures does not make the same circumstance here.


Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

 

[monkeydog]

This is obviously something that is bothering you.

I would suggest you talk to the Senior Pastor about your concerns, as well as what Mike noted. Offer up your services as a charitable donation, even if it is a preliminary inspection.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Our 4:00pm Christmas Eve Mass had an attendance estimated at 2,200 (including myself, who had to usher so I didn't need a seat) for a church which has been designated to seat around 800 parishioners on a normal Sunday. Needless to say, it was very crowded with people having to stand several deep around the periphery of the sanctuary with overflow out the doors and into the courtyard and secondary meeting rooms (which were equipped with large screen TV's where the services were being shown from cameras in the sanctuary).

And the fire-marshall never showed.

Note that ours is a new structure (less than 5 years old) with no basement so all of us were standing a 'solid ground'. Also this being SoCal, the weather was not an issue with those who had to sit or stand outside.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[racookpe1978]

Churches - almost by their nature (nurture ?) are difficult clients, and difficult problems. Contractors who regularly work both church and non-church jobs regularly comment about the slow payments and low budgets (related of course) of church maintenance jobs.

But, if your observation creates a discomfort, your "sixth sense" - engineering judgement - professional experience - guardian angel - precognitive abilities ARE being alerted to a problem. Treat it as seriously as you would have 100,000 years ago when questioning whether or not your family should go looking for berries in heavy brush - wasn't that the time when you need to begin asking "Are the grizzly bears also eating berries in those bushes?"

Regrettably, if you begin by asking the pastor about your concerns, but ultimately have to bring in the building inspectors and city into the situation, you have burned bridges difficult to repair. He will, after all, remember you were the one who brought the issue up, and he was one who decided not to take action to repair the structure out of fear of needing repairs. He does need to be warned.

But, it is still a moral issue: not of whether or not the structure is dangerous, but of whether you "hide" your concerns in order "not to make waves" ...... But, you've got to look at the worse case - in the next thunderstorm or windstorm, the next snow storm and ice-loaded roof, who will be inside the building when it collapses?

 

[IRstuff]

You are not unethical, because you do not know that there's anything wrong; it is merely your supposition, however well-founded that it might be.

While volunteering to do an inspection is certainly admirable, I agree with racookpe1978 that you need to factor in the unintended consequences of your actions.

TTFN
faq731-376

 

[Liftingengineer]

Reminds me of bars on halloween......

I've got a PHD is Broscience

 

[JedClampett]

As far as the Fire Marshall counting heads, I suspect that the first church he closed down on Christmas Eve would be his last.

 

[OHIOMatt]

Thanks for the feedback. I will ponder this for a while. It seems we are safe, at least until Easter.

This does make me wonder, if there are engineers out there that would specifically avoid certain types of airplanes, cars, appliances, etc. out of the same "gut feeling" type of sense. Please note, this is not about have specific facts and covering them up or anything of that nature.

 

[IRstuff]

That sounds more like neuroticism than anything else. The statistical probability of anything failing during your use or occupation thereof is exceedingly low in general. Only in cases where there is an obvious or overt violation of usage pre-requisites, such as occupancy limits, would there be concern. Even in those cases, as you have demonstrated, is there rarely an actual failure, simply because most structures are sufficiently overdesigned. Something that was not designed by a licensed professional, on the other hand, would be more likely to be suspect. Or something that wasn't built in a developed country with a history of strong design professionalism. Certainly, some structures in places outside of the US has given me, an EE by education, pause, and a desire to avoid them at all costs.

Even in cases where poor maintenance is rampant or un-noticed occurs in aircraft, they still generally stay in the air when they're supposed to.

TTFN
faq731-376

 

[DRWeig]

Nobody has mentioned the air conditioning and ventilation capacity. I watch and participate in a mass on TV for Christmas and Easter. The last time I did Easter, I had a puddle of sweat in my shoes by halfway through and the heavy concentration of Chanel No. 5 in the air was making me nauseous. I think I will be forgiven.

Note on the OP: Unless I see an immediate hazard, I can't really justify action. If I do see an immediate hazard, I call the fire department, and let them summon the inspectors if needed. I checked into a hotel in Las Vegas once, room on the 10th floor of a huge tower. As is my habit, I avoided the elevators and went to jog down the stairs to the casino. I found the stairs packed absolutely full of mattresses, bed parts, nightstands, and other what-not. My call to the LVFD got the building evacuated from the 2nd floor up. What fun!

Best to you,

Goober Dave

Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies

 

[FreddyNurk]

Dave, I admire your approach, its managed to get me locked out of high up floors of buildings on more than one occasion (fire escapes are meant for people exiting the building, not for people using it as a shortcut for the lift...).

I got a serious case of the giggles when my boss did it once, and had to walk down the entire building's worth of stairs to get back to his room.

I've never managed to get a hotel evacuated though.

 

[brandonbw]

I glance at rollercoaster we ride from time to time and noticed that the torque paint on the bolts had moved. Made the ride a whole lot scarier. That was the one that dangles over the strip in Las Vegas.

People also don't like it when I say wow this elevator is now holding a lot more than it should, as a few more people try to get in too. I don't think people want to hear about this stuff.

B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer

http://bwengr.com

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http://bwstructuralengineer.com

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http://bwcivilengineer.com

 

[DRWeig]

Re: evacuated hotel

It was a big surprise to me too when the FD did it. The guy who seemed to be in charge looked older than me, he might have been around for the MGM Grand fire.

Best to you,

Goober Dave

Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies

 

[bridgebuster]

Merry Little Christmas to all.

If you have strong concerns bring it up with the pastor or the person who is responsible for the building. You might find out that you're now the parish engineer. (BTW - it's not a bad job; just keep in mind your pay is deferred)

A few years ago, our diocesan bishop thought it prudent to have all churches and parish building inspected. One of our three parish churches is over a timber framed structure build in 1909 and no structural problems; the only deficiency was the kneelers. However, in a neighboring parish, the foundation of their church was completely undermined due to an underground stream. It was immediately closed since it could have collapsed at any moment - you never know.

 

[KM]

Resolving any problems found during an inspection need not necessarily be expensive---maybe they just need to hold 2 services on Christmas Eve and spread out the congregation a bit? Lots of churches do, e.g. on Christmas Eve my parish has a 4:30 PM, 7:30 PM and Midnight Mass.

 

[bridgebuster]

My parish priest takes pride in the fact that he started the 10 PM midnight Mass a year before the Pope.

 

[moltenmetal]

Thanks to the OP for providing me with yet another reason not to go to church. I had many already. Unfortunately, at Christmas and Easter at least, my wife provides the only counter-reason sufficient to get me into a church of my own accord, and the "fear of God" has nothing to do with it. I don't think a risk of structural failure would be sufficient to convince her otherwise.

 

[stevenal]

Clearly less engineering and more faith is required here. After all; if a structural failure in a place of worship were to occur during the celebration of a high holiday, the wrong holiday is being celebrated in the wrong place of worship.

 

[debodine]

I am all in favor of worship and faith. But rather than hope that God would miraculously prevent a tragedy caused by misuse of an old and probably outdated design, I would rather the worshippers use God's gifts of intelligence and wisdom to use the structure correctly and also to hire professionals to perform periodic inspections, repairs and upgrades so it does not /need/ a miracle to remain standing. )