more on engineer degrees 7

[boffintech]

I work with a guy that constantly refers to his degree as a “bachelor of science in civil engineering”. I see this guy’s framed certificate on the wall and it actually reads “Bachelor of Engineering Technology”. I have never heard him refer to himself as an engineer. But here’s the thing, no one here considers the guy an “engineer”. He is a low level CMT technician, has been for 10 years, and will likely continue to be one for the next 20.

1) Is it a matter of poor ethical judgment for him to refer to his degree in the manner in which he does?

2) Should I just MYOB?

 

[GregLocock]

Mine says I got a Bachelor of Arts, and where, and when. That is all. One of the more expensive and least informative pieces of paper in my collection!



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[btrueblood]

Mine & the wife's hang on the wall in our den at home. Moved jobs too many times, and a Master's in Aeronautics and Astronautics just raises questions when doing design work in other industries. The boss knows I know mechanical design, everybody else just assumes my degree was in Mech. Engrg.

 

[BJC]

Mine is signed by Ronald Reagan or at least signed by his autopen.

 

[dozer]

Boffintech, it does make you wonder though. If he "constantly" misrepresents his degree, what else is he "bending the truth" about?

 

[wes616]

"I have never heard him refer to himself as an engineer. But here’s the thing, no one here considers the guy an “engineer”."

Great. So the only person who cares is YOU. get over it.

Wes C.
------------------------------
When they broke open molecules, they found they were only stuffed with atoms. But when they broke open atoms, they found them stuffed with explosions...

 

[CarolinaPE]

The funny thing is, the people I see with a ton of stuff on their wall (certificates, etc) the less credentials they have. It is as if they are making up for something. Also noticed that the lower the ranking of the university, the bigger diploma and more gold seals on it.

 

[buzzp]

The guy may not know the difference, which is likely. People that know the difference are usually only engineers.

Most of these degrees are 4 yr degrees but taught on an atypical schedule of all year long. They just don't go into the depth a real engineering curriculum would.

Its too bad some of your colleges did not put what discipline on your degrees. Seems like a major oversight on their behalf.

If someone wants to hang their degree, let them. I have no problem with it. Mine is not hanging anywhere but each to his own.

If the guy thinks he is an engineer, then his supervisor should politely correct him, if indeed he is not an engineer at this particular company. He may be an engineer their but without the typical education. Then again, maybe he is just a technician. I don't remember reading where you stated what his title actually is.

I have worked at a place where they called people electrical engineers to their customers. These people did not even know ohms law. Unfortunatley, they actually believed they had some engineering ability, very, very scary. The manager(supposedly) was an engineer but he never made a qualm about it. I believe he wanted their customers to think they actually employed several engineers. The place was a real joke. Project managers were people who did not even go to college and had no clue on how to design a product or the steps involved. Their equipment was very dangerous, in my opinion, and I exited out of there in a hurry. So the guy may just not have a clue that he is really not an engineer, especially if he has engineer in his title.

 

[RDK]

I once worked for the military.

Every course longer than about three days gets you a “Certificate of Military Achievement” which is a nice certificate suitable for framing. (Some of these are real courses with stringent pass requirements and some are simply attend only touchy feely ones with little enduring merit.)

Add to that military commission scrolls, university diplomas, licenses and the usual parting gifts from each posting and assignment and sooner or later every individual has a vast collection of stuff, some meaningful: the result of some hard work and a lot of it only of significance to that individual.

If someone puts it all on a wall then it is called an “I love me.” wall.




Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[Yashu]

Just put that MSEE diploma in the bedroom chest top drawer with the rest of your awards... like me... unless you've got an inferiority complex.

If you don't create a new working, profitable design annually and/or haven't solved a differential equation in 1 year, you must relinquish your degrees until doing so... and then subsequently be re-deemed as a utile engineer.

...Kind of like renewing your drivers license.

 

[Guest0527211403]

Since high school, I have given every diploma/certificate I receive to my parents. Partly because certificates don't match my choice of wall decorations, but mostly because I owe it to them more than anyone else for getting the degree in the first place.

If I ever work in a real office with real walls that reach the ceiling, I will put them up... Until then, they share wall-space with some rather embarassing baby photos.

 

[pso311]

My degree is B.S. Applied Science
My major: Mechanical Engineering Technology
ABET accredited University

Do I consider myself an engineer - yes
Can I sit for the FE/PE - yes

 

[cthame]

The fact that this subject has gotten so much attention proves that engineers and "engineers", ("engineers" - those who think they are but some would challenge) have really big egos, and need to have their titles to feel important.

Anyone can be an engineer in my estimation if they fit the criterial. Orville and Wilber Wright, the 1st and arguable the best aeronautical engineers ever, had no formal engineering training. In fact, Orville didn't even graduate from high school, let alone ABET.

Thomas Alvia Edison. The father of the electrical age, the greatest inventer ever, no formalized engineering training, in fact his mother home schooled him. He never set foot on a college campus.

I could go on forever.

With the great achivements of these men (women) and men (women) like them, only a fool would dare challenge their credentials. These were some of the best engineers the world has yet seen.

Guiness recognizes guiness. Don't look at the title, certificates, or no. of degrees, respect the skills. Real engineers want to be engineers because they love the field. They do things that people say can't be done, or don't want to do. They are a special breed. Real engineers want to feel like engineers. If someone needs to design rockets thats fine. If someone needs to feel like he can solve a differential equation, good enough. If someone needs to know all the asoteric clause of the National Electrical code, good too. If someone needs to come up with a patentable idea, well enough. Regardless, we always recognize our own, the advertisement of a degree makes it obvious, but its not required.

Just so no one says, "he's saying that because he's not an engineer", I have a Bachelors and Masters Degree from an ABET accredited school, I've been practicing for 6 years, and I'm sitting for my PE in April. Yet I still aspire to feel like an engineer.

 

[PsionSaint]

As my department head told us when we graduated:

"Congratulations. You now have a piece of paper that entitles you to go out a learn how to be an engineer."

-Dr. Baldwin, CSM ChemEng Dept.

Even though I didn't stay in the design side of engineering, I still tell people "I'm an engineer" when they ask what I do. More accurately, I don't "do" engineering. It's more of what I "am". This distinction is lost on most non-engineers...

 

[RDK]

I was told basically the same thing about my private pilot’s license.

“Congratulations you now have a license to learn how to fly.”

Too bad I didn’t have enough spare money.


Formal education is only the starting point of engineering. A degree is more about teaching you how to think like an engineer (or any other profession). You may get some specifically useful knowledge but in most fields even that will become obsolete in a few years. That’s why continuing education is such a hot topic in all professions.

However an adequate foundation in formal education is essential to gain the maximum benefit from the experience.

That is why all professional bodies have experience requirements for full membership, because it is simply impossible to teach the profession in an academic setting.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[PSE]

Are we talking about more on engineering degrees or moron engineering degrees (sorry could'nt resist)

 

[stevenal]

Guiness recognizes guiness

Suddenly I'm feeling thirsty.

 

[RDK]

Guinesses can't spel?

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[wes616]

Let me ask this question the... regarding the continuing education remark about the engineering degree being a "starting poing".

That’s why continuing education is such a hot topic in all professions.

However an adequate foundation in formal education is essential to gain the maximum benefit from the experience

I worked for Project Engineer at an aerospace company who's degree was in biochemestry (we were in a structural *design* group). He however, continued to take engineering courses, in areas where *He* felt he was lacking. He also took courses to stay UP in the field. We actually took a couple of graduate courses together. One in Vibrations another in matlab.

I know he was quite active in the SAE, and he continually took courses in the *technology* that was rapidly changind (CATIA coursework).

BUT---- He has NO Engineering degree.... So he says, he's an engineer... he works as an engineer... (now for all of those who will say that he isn't liscensed - in CA aero is an exempt industry, so that is out of the discussion)...

now I thought he was a very competent engineer... except he spelled better than engineers... what do you think?

Wes C.
------------------------------
When they broke open molecules, they found they were only stuffed with atoms. But when they broke open atoms, they found them stuffed with explosions...

 

[Ashereng]

How about this:

In those jurisdictions where there are laws/acts/legistlation/other legal requirements to calling yourself an engineer, then, you need to meet those requirements before you can "legally" call yourself an engineer. For example, Canada.

In those jurisidiction where there are not, then you can call yourself an engineer, as there is no "legality" involved. For example, I don't have one, so can someone help me out here.

I specifically want to avoid any moral, ethical, etc, reasons as that is covered elsewhere.

 

[RDK]

I thought that in the US anyone with or without any sort of qualification can all themselves “engineer’ as long as they don’t imply that they are PE’s as well.


Call your dog an engineer in the US if you want, cannot do that in Canada because there is right to title and to use it, with limited exceptions, you MUST be a member of at least one provincial association.

In wes616’s example it appears that the individual does have the necessary academic background to benefit from the experience in an engineering field.

You could not take someone out of high school, sit them down and teach them how to crank out some sort of design and expect them to gain anything near professional experience out of doing them.

You could however take s graduate of a science, math or engineering program and do the same thing and then have them actually get some professional experience doing the same thing.

The difference is that the high schooler would only be doing things in a mechanical fashion with no understanding of why he was doing them and the graduate would have some knowledge of where the equations he was using came from.

I was using the example of needing suitable academic qualification not in terms of only ABET accredited programs but in the more general sense of having some suitable academic background.


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com