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[swearingen]

I saw a video clip of this on the news and looked it up on the net. I'm curious what you folks have to say about it.

The home page:

http://hytechapps.com/

The technical paper:

http://hytechapps.com/aquygen/international_journal.pdf

Apparently this is a new gas with properties that are hard to swallow from an energy balance perspective. I'd like to get your insight.

 

[Yorkman]

I was at a demo of this "machine" in Anne Arbor Mi. a couple of years ago. They were pretty closed mouth on the process, but did mention that you need to add some type of salt? to the water in oder for the HHO generator to work. The demonstration was impressive, cutting 3/8 steel plate with virtualy no pre-heat time, also noted that the material never got very hot. Very interesting item.

I'm not a real engineer, but I play one on T.V.
A.J. Gest, York Int./JCI

 

[MortenA]

sounds like snake oil to me

Best regards Morten

 

[Yorkman]

I would have said so too, not sure of the proccess and I was not sure of a fuel (gas/oxy.) comdination that could produce flame temps of 10,000 degrees as they claim. I was however was surprized at the speed at which a cold piece of 3/8 plate could be cut. I've cut a lot of steel in my career and had never seen any thing quite like it.

I'm not a real engineer, but I play one on T.V.
A.J. Gest, York Int./JCI

 

[JStephen]

Sounds very much like snake oil to me.

"This feature alone establishes that the H2O Model 1500 Aquygen™ Gas Generator produces a new form of water that is gaseous and combustible." Yee haw, now we can all burn water and do away with that gasoline stuff.

Making whatever out of water, you're going to get oxygen, hydrogen, water vapor, maybe hydrogen peroxide if you're lucky. If they're mixing something with the water, it could be the carbide stuff they use to generate acetylene. But when they say it violates basic laws of physics but don't explain exactly what it is or how or why it works, it sounds like a scam.

 

[quark]

....and Bill Gates still being (undisputedly) the richest person in the world has anything to negate this?

 

[BigInch]

Not snake oil. Its snake gas.

Looks like they're making plain old simple hydrogen from electrolysis of water, which will probably cost more to do than if you buy the equivalent BTU of acetylene in a tank from your welding gas supplier. Assuming you're using your own electrictiy to make the stuff.

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

 

[dcasto]

We still have the first and second laws of thermal dynamics, there is no free lunch in this. The only way Hydrogen will become a fuel is when we can make enough of it. The only way to make enough is to electrocute water. The only way to get enough electricity is to build nuke plants. So the US is out of the hydrogen business.

 

[Ashereng]

If you make hydrogen using hydro-electricity, it is much "greener" than using either coal, gas or nuclear sources.

In addition, other "green" electrical sources include using:
- tidal wave (excuse my non-electricalness)
- geo thermal
- wind
- solar

Any of these can make hydrogen relatively cleanly.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[BigInch]

Ashereng, got a question maybe right up your alley, please. How much H2 can all the US hydros make, if they geared up for it. Would it be a spit in the ocean or could it be significant? Like how many H2 cars could it run? Its not really a need to know thing, so don't spend any serious time on it.

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

 

[btrueblood]

The Greens would disagree with you, Ashereng:

- Hydro: blocks salmon migration routes, kills fishies.
- tidal : blocks fish migration routes, is unsightly, unknown effects on whales/dolphins/seals. Practical utility is limited (for now) to a few areas with high tidal differentials.
- geo thermal: limited practical areas it can be applied. I'm sure the greens will come up with reasons why it's bad (cuts off hot water supply to thermophile/sulfophile bacteria colonies?)
- wind: mills kill birds, are unsightly.
- solar: increasing the albedo of the earth with black solar cells will cause global warming, use of acreage for generation will impact habitat for desert tortoises, jackrabbits, rattlesnakes, etc.

sigh...

 

[joerd]

So we have to wait for nuclear fusion reactors after all?

Cheers,
Joerd

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[Ashereng]

BigInch,

Nope, not up my alley. I'm in petroleum, black gold - probably same as you.

I have no idea how much H2 the US can produce. A guess would be more in the spit in the ocean side than the realistic side of things.

H2 has a lot of inherent problems. I have worked in 2 plants that use a lot of H2, and both manufacture it on site - lot of reasons, but safety in transport is probably up there. (Pulp and paper and soap manufacturing.)

I don't think H2 is the solution to petro. I don't know what is, but H2 is not it.

The amount of H2 to power all cars in the US would be huge. Aside from manufactuing, there is infrastructure. If you think people blowing up their cars at the gas pump is a problem, wait till you see H2 filling stations going up. I have never seen a H2 fire, but from my safety training class, I don't think I want to.



"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[Ashereng]

If you make hydrogen using hydro-electricity, it is much "greener" than using either coal, gas or nuclear sources.

btrueblood,

I said "greener". Not completely green.

There are consequences to any decision and method chosen. It is a trade off. You get A, give up B. If you don't then it is like a perpetual machine - only in theory.

I agree, wind turbines may kill birds (not so sure about the ugly part).

The hydro dams. Not much salmon migration up the Niagra Falls. Not sure about other species, but the falls is HUGE. I hate to be the fish to swim up that (or down for that matter as there are rocks at the bottom).

Solar. There are solar shingles now available. A buddy is into renewable resources and power. It's not cheap, but it works. My shingles are black anyways, so making them black solar panel is not adding anymore "blackness" to the world (well, actually, the shingle is black with grey in it - not sure if its color or dirt).

Yes, I agree. It's tough being green.

Then again, I'm in the black gold business. I'm all for petro comsumption for now. ;-)



"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[JStephen]

I recently saw in the news where someone was proposing more offshore wind generators on the Texas gulf coast, and people were protesting it- probably the same ones who demanded it 20 years ago.

 

[ColourfulFigsnDiags]

Interesting that the journal paper has been published now in a respected peer reviewed journal:
International Journal of Hydrogen Energy, Volume 31, Issue 9, August 2006, Pages 1113-1128

Lends a bit more credence to the claims ... I wouldn't be dismissing this just yet, but I would like to see how the paper is recieved in a respected physics / chemistry journal.

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