I am wondering if anyone else here has had the experience of leaving management and returning to an individual contributor role? I’ve been in management for the past few years, but if I’m honest with myself the stress and daily tasks leave me burned out and unsatisfied. I much more enjoy my days when I can get into the grind and actually do something technical. Has anyone done this and regretted it? Not done it and wished they had?
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Leaving management 7
- Thread starter KSor
- Start date
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
Yes, I did that when I moved from sales to R&D. I was a regional manager (the mid-west) and had about 16 people in my group. I had had the job for about 18 months when I was offered a staff position to the VP of development. Since my degree and background was in engineering, I decided that I could be a bigger contributor to the success of the company in the new role, so I didn't think twice, despite it involving a cross-country move. I remained in R&D holding various technical positions for the next 28+ years. It was the best move I ever made.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
truckandbus
Automotive
I have not done this myself but several of my colleagues have - either within the same company or by leaving to go to another company. The idea is if you are going to be doing something for the next X years you should be enjoying most of that time.
My very first boss was actually an individual that was a "rising star, unlimited potential, next chief engineer" type but he knew he was not cut out for management and very happily road out a 30+ year career in the same product development position
My very first boss was actually an individual that was a "rising star, unlimited potential, next chief engineer" type but he knew he was not cut out for management and very happily road out a 30+ year career in the same product development position
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4
- #4
I can relate. Since 1973 I have held lots of different types of positions. I've been a "grunt", a designer, a project engineer, a consultant, a field installer, a business owner, an inventor, a department manager (in both manufacturing and consulting), a "senior associate" (one step below partner in a large engineering firm), and many more. I have never been happier than when my brain and hands are directly involved in the detailed design of a solution to some problem. Management meetings and budget reviews put me to sleep and cause ulcers. Sales and business promotion can be a lot of fun. You get to travel, meet new people, learn new things, and try to help a client solve a problem. But it is VERY difficult for me to then release that project and let someone else take over while I go find the next one. Its hard not to take ownership of a project from beginning to end.
I'm sure could have made more money in my career by staying in management, but I was absolutely unhappy there and frankly might have been dead by now from the stress. A big part of the stress came from having to buy in to stupid corporate moves and promote them to my direct reports as a good and wise thing. If I'm a worker bee I can honestly say that's not my problem.
I have also found that if you're doing what you love doing, you will be good at it. You will also get a reputation for being good at it. People will come to you for help. So, when management has an inventory control issue they need help with, they don't come to me. But when they need a completely new type of widget designed they come to me first.
I'm not recommending anything in my story for anyone else - ever! All I'm just saying two things: (1) Never be afraid to try something new, and (2) Never shy away from being honest with yourself about your own happiness.
I'm sure could have made more money in my career by staying in management, but I was absolutely unhappy there and frankly might have been dead by now from the stress. A big part of the stress came from having to buy in to stupid corporate moves and promote them to my direct reports as a good and wise thing. If I'm a worker bee I can honestly say that's not my problem.
I have also found that if you're doing what you love doing, you will be good at it. You will also get a reputation for being good at it. People will come to you for help. So, when management has an inventory control issue they need help with, they don't come to me. But when they need a completely new type of widget designed they come to me first.
I'm not recommending anything in my story for anyone else - ever! All I'm just saying two things: (1) Never be afraid to try something new, and (2) Never shy away from being honest with yourself about your own happiness.
Yes. I moved from a mega-corp's research dept to work for a small (few hundred employee) company a few years ago for a bit more job stability and the promise of greater income possibilities in management. In reality my income flat-lined and the job stability was about the same. My stress went down a bit but likely because I was bored out of my mind, small companies IME simply don't innovate as quickly nor as steadily as large companies do. I also spent a ton of thoroughly enjoyable time coaching subordinates as like many small companies, their engineers didn't have a broad knowledge/experience base due to lack of company resources. I worked there a year then jumped back into an individual contributor role at a large'ish company where I make more, learn more, and get to do more. Fortunately or possibly not, I'm now being considered for a management role here which is the usual double-edged sword but in this case - if promoted I will earn more than my previous small-employer's chief engineer.
I went from management back to individual contributor, and I don't regret it one bit. I had 17 direct reports, and It wasn't easy to manage them. I missed doing engineering, and after four years I begged for my old job back. I had a hard time getting management to agree to the move. It took nine months to get them to agree.
One of the worst tasks that I had as a manager was the annual performance review. I did not like the aspect of being a go between from upper management to the individual contributors. Upper management had a lot of say in the process, but I had to be the bearer of bad news and take the brunt of the complaints.
One of the worst tasks that I had as a manager was the annual performance review. I did not like the aspect of being a go between from upper management to the individual contributors. Upper management had a lot of say in the process, but I had to be the bearer of bad news and take the brunt of the complaints.
Never been a full blown manager, but did manage a few people a couple of times. Hated both times; combination of performance reviews and day-to-day supervision. Hated performance reviews because I tend to be a tough grader. Hated the other because there's always an oddball employee that's just a PITA because they somehow get a brainwipe every weekend, or they just aren't as quick on the uptake as I think they should be. The former almost got injured because they forgot to do their due diligence to check that all gases be turned off, prior to opening the furnace to lab air; 900C hydrogen gas just doesn't play well with room air.
A coworker did go from manager to IC and thoroughly enjoyed it.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
A coworker did go from manager to IC and thoroughly enjoyed it.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
Yes, doing annual reviews was a particular pain for me. I was working for McDonnell Douglas when I was a regional manager for our mid-west sales support team and I had two supervisors reporting to me, one in Detroit and one in Chicago. Now at McDonnell Douglas at that time, we did annual reviews on the employee's birthday. Well in my situation, BOTH of my supervisors had the SAME birthday, and if that didn't make things complicated enough, it was also MY birthday (same exact day and month). This meant the not only did I have to do TWO reviews simultaneously, I also had to spend time going though my own review. Fortunately I only had to do that twice before I left management, except that one of my supervisors was on what they called a 'fast track' and so I had to do her review every six months.
The other issue with management was having to deal with personal situations brought to me by my employees, both with respect to internal and external issues, including one of my people dating another employee (in another group) and a sexual harassment problem against a relatively senior manager at headquarters brought by one of my female employees. And then there was the time when the company had to cut back and I was given orders to fire one of my people. It was to be my choice, but I had to do so in such a way as to not impact our workload.
I was glad to move over to R&D when the opportunity presented itself.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
The other issue with management was having to deal with personal situations brought to me by my employees, both with respect to internal and external issues, including one of my people dating another employee (in another group) and a sexual harassment problem against a relatively senior manager at headquarters brought by one of my female employees. And then there was the time when the company had to cut back and I was given orders to fire one of my people. It was to be my choice, but I had to do so in such a way as to not impact our workload.
I was glad to move over to R&D when the opportunity presented itself.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
Had middle management positions a couple of times. Never regretted leaving. I'd much rather have been the go to guru problem solver than have to deal with employees' problems (drugs, alcohol, absenteeism, etc), employee turnover, human resources and upper management carping.
Yep! Was managing my own business and doing most of the engineering back in the 80's. Hated it! Loved the technical stuff, didn't like the management stuff. Sold the business and went to work for the buyer...still as a branch office manager/technical resource. Didn't like the corporate meddling and didn't get along well with the corporate weenies. They brought in a guy who was well suited to management and I became a primary technical resource. Perfect! Stayed for 12 years as a Chief Engineer/Corporate technical guy until the corporate structure decided they weren't happy just meddling with the managers, they were going to do that to the technical people as well. Left there and went to smaller regional firm and became a regional manager and regional technical guy. Not bad because it required less management at the regional level and I could do mostly technical stuff, but alas.....corporate offices just can't leave things alone, even when profitable, growing and increasing the technical level of the operation. Left there after 4 years and started another business with NO management structure....just a collection of competent, experienced engineers who like to be left alone to do their thing. Has worked well for 14 years and I have no plans to change that!
Some engineers like management, most don't. Management is almost always more lucrative than the technical side in a corporate environment. If your company has a dual career path, as some do, then you probably won't suffer too much from lower financial opportunities and you'll be a lot happier!
Some engineers like management, most don't. Management is almost always more lucrative than the technical side in a corporate environment. If your company has a dual career path, as some do, then you probably won't suffer too much from lower financial opportunities and you'll be a lot happier!
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3
- #11
I will be a voice of dissent here, and feel obliged to reply if only to repay some of the debt owed to this website and its posters.
I'll give it you straight, even if it is offensive to some. If you want to be a peon (I am a proud Peon and own that word), and a cog in the machine, stay in an individual contributor role. If you want to secure job security for you, and more money and security for your family, become a manager. Given enough IQ and perseverance, many can become "individual contributors" but only a few can excel at the much harder task that is people/money management, especially white collar management. Flame away...I've had this told to me by several people in reality, and having been on both sides of the fence, wholeheartedly agree. Personally, I made a big mistake, huge mistake frankly, going from management to individual contributor and am taking steps to go back into management.
Here is what I have seen, in no particular order:
- Class of over 60 masters level structural engineers from a top school, mostly from India and China, graduating and hitting the streets to be individual contributors. Extrapolate that by at least 50 flagship state universities. This isn't CNN or Fox News, this is my two eyeballs. Nothing against these students; they simply kick a** in a society where everyone gets a trophy and standards are lowered in the name of diversity. They come from societies where hard studying is the norm, and they are steamrolling over our higher educational system, particularly graduate level studies.
I'd rather be in a management role so I don't compete with them. I want to be the technically astute decision maker, and someone else can figure out the minutiae. For your sake and your family's, you should too.
- Being an individual contributor is both more challenging and more fun. Being a peon is more fun; it's more intellectually stimulating. I am a proud "highly educated worker", a proud Peon!
But it's not all about You, and what You like; it's about what's best for you and your family. Because as I said, your job is less secure as a peon.
- At my government job (I'm keeping it vague on purpose) I have several foreign doctoral level engineers doing work that a guy with a bachelors could do. Guess what, these folks eventually take management roles too. You need to climb that ladder quick, because otherwise, you might find that your hitting a ceiling of MBA's, PhDs and other over-educated people in your path.
- As a manager you are in control; you make the decisions; you wear the pants. As a peon, like me, there ain't no philosophical distance between me, a plumber, or the short order cook at Mickey D's. We get orders and we either fix a pipe, make a burger, or crank out a set of plans.
Good for you buddy, you made a set of engineering plans today. There are thousands of others coming out of school or busting through the immigration window that can do it too!
- The folks that have posted before me have had fairly happy tales of peonage. Read between some of their lines though. "Worked 4 years here, worked 3 years there, bounced around and around..."...is that the kind of life you want? As a peon, you're an interchangeable part on a spreadsheet; you keep moving around and around, plying your trade.
- Are there negatives to management? Heck yeah dude! The previous posters have pointed out plenty galore and you already know them. That's why management pays more and is less fun. It's not about you anymore, it's about a team, processes, protocols; making the machine work so the cogs can cog out product. That has its own fun, but if it really was the bomb.com; everyone would do it and it would pay less.
- As a peon I went through a mass layoff. It's sobering. All the good stuff about being hands on and technical comes to a grinding halt when you realize that your former management peers are making money hand over fist, and you're out on the block plying your trade... Sobering.
- Lastly, you should be asking yourself more about where do you want to work long term, so you can safely hit retirement, including moving into that organization's management ranks...and less individual contributor versus manager. Some corporations and firms are so obviously unstable, and yet we go work for them. Open up your aperture, try to see the end goal.
Maybe go back to school and academia for a PhD. They desperately need people who are from the U.S. and you pretty much play with research and teach the next generation of engineers.
Maybe look at government employment, where life is far more relaxed for less pay, and being an individual contributor is fairly safe.
Maybe think about your own business, even self employment, or a niche market where your individual contribution is more valuable.
As for me, obviously I had a pretty thorny question here in a previous post and do not know it all. I was a manager, had direct reports, and was on an awesome management track that I did not appreciate at the time. I kicked it over because I let my ego take over; and thought about what do I like to do, instead of "what is best for me and my family long term?" Being a peon made me appreciate peons far more, and I really find it fun...but, but, but.
It's sad how poorly we treat our individual contributing engineers, who make the designs happen. For many of them, bouncing from consultant to consultant, corporation to firm to blah... is all they know. It's totally screwed up given how intelligent these men and women are, and how educated they are. Philosophically, they may be no different from a plumber or cook...but da** if they're not far more important to our civilization.
BUT, this world is not what we want it to be, it is what it is. Think twice before leaving management, think long and hard, especially if you have a family.
I'll give it you straight, even if it is offensive to some. If you want to be a peon (I am a proud Peon and own that word), and a cog in the machine, stay in an individual contributor role. If you want to secure job security for you, and more money and security for your family, become a manager. Given enough IQ and perseverance, many can become "individual contributors" but only a few can excel at the much harder task that is people/money management, especially white collar management. Flame away...I've had this told to me by several people in reality, and having been on both sides of the fence, wholeheartedly agree. Personally, I made a big mistake, huge mistake frankly, going from management to individual contributor and am taking steps to go back into management.
Here is what I have seen, in no particular order:
- Class of over 60 masters level structural engineers from a top school, mostly from India and China, graduating and hitting the streets to be individual contributors. Extrapolate that by at least 50 flagship state universities. This isn't CNN or Fox News, this is my two eyeballs. Nothing against these students; they simply kick a** in a society where everyone gets a trophy and standards are lowered in the name of diversity. They come from societies where hard studying is the norm, and they are steamrolling over our higher educational system, particularly graduate level studies.
I'd rather be in a management role so I don't compete with them. I want to be the technically astute decision maker, and someone else can figure out the minutiae. For your sake and your family's, you should too.
- Being an individual contributor is both more challenging and more fun. Being a peon is more fun; it's more intellectually stimulating. I am a proud "highly educated worker", a proud Peon!
But it's not all about You, and what You like; it's about what's best for you and your family. Because as I said, your job is less secure as a peon.
- At my government job (I'm keeping it vague on purpose) I have several foreign doctoral level engineers doing work that a guy with a bachelors could do. Guess what, these folks eventually take management roles too. You need to climb that ladder quick, because otherwise, you might find that your hitting a ceiling of MBA's, PhDs and other over-educated people in your path.
- As a manager you are in control; you make the decisions; you wear the pants. As a peon, like me, there ain't no philosophical distance between me, a plumber, or the short order cook at Mickey D's. We get orders and we either fix a pipe, make a burger, or crank out a set of plans.
Good for you buddy, you made a set of engineering plans today. There are thousands of others coming out of school or busting through the immigration window that can do it too!
- The folks that have posted before me have had fairly happy tales of peonage. Read between some of their lines though. "Worked 4 years here, worked 3 years there, bounced around and around..."...is that the kind of life you want? As a peon, you're an interchangeable part on a spreadsheet; you keep moving around and around, plying your trade.
- Are there negatives to management? Heck yeah dude! The previous posters have pointed out plenty galore and you already know them. That's why management pays more and is less fun. It's not about you anymore, it's about a team, processes, protocols; making the machine work so the cogs can cog out product. That has its own fun, but if it really was the bomb.com; everyone would do it and it would pay less.
- As a peon I went through a mass layoff. It's sobering. All the good stuff about being hands on and technical comes to a grinding halt when you realize that your former management peers are making money hand over fist, and you're out on the block plying your trade... Sobering.
- Lastly, you should be asking yourself more about where do you want to work long term, so you can safely hit retirement, including moving into that organization's management ranks...and less individual contributor versus manager. Some corporations and firms are so obviously unstable, and yet we go work for them. Open up your aperture, try to see the end goal.
Maybe go back to school and academia for a PhD. They desperately need people who are from the U.S. and you pretty much play with research and teach the next generation of engineers.
Maybe look at government employment, where life is far more relaxed for less pay, and being an individual contributor is fairly safe.
Maybe think about your own business, even self employment, or a niche market where your individual contribution is more valuable.
As for me, obviously I had a pretty thorny question here in a previous post and do not know it all. I was a manager, had direct reports, and was on an awesome management track that I did not appreciate at the time. I kicked it over because I let my ego take over; and thought about what do I like to do, instead of "what is best for me and my family long term?" Being a peon made me appreciate peons far more, and I really find it fun...but, but, but.
It's sad how poorly we treat our individual contributing engineers, who make the designs happen. For many of them, bouncing from consultant to consultant, corporation to firm to blah... is all they know. It's totally screwed up given how intelligent these men and women are, and how educated they are. Philosophically, they may be no different from a plumber or cook...but da** if they're not far more important to our civilization.
BUT, this world is not what we want it to be, it is what it is. Think twice before leaving management, think long and hard, especially if you have a family.
I get what you're saying, but you seem to imply that *anybody* can be an individual contributor but management types are the few and the elite. This isn't true in my experience, people can suck at being technical but can be a decent manager; the inverse is also true. At the end of the day it comes down to what you want to do.
Furthermore, a LOT of people seem to have your mindset. At least among my same aged peers, the vast majority are vying for management/project management and trying to get in that track. Since it's hard to find experienced senior engineers, you can actually be very valuable as a young competent engineer.
Furthermore, a LOT of people seem to have your mindset. At least among my same aged peers, the vast majority are vying for management/project management and trying to get in that track. Since it's hard to find experienced senior engineers, you can actually be very valuable as a young competent engineer.
My observations here are anecdotal, not based on hard research, AND I am not a manager so YMMV.
I have 45 years in aviation as a technician and engineer. I give that only as background info with no attempt to imply I am an expert or an authority. It is just to let you know I have seen a bit of this life. What I have personally chosen to do is avoid management my entire career. It has worked well for me, as I prefer to be involved in the nuts and bolts of design. However, I will also admit that I have worked at several locations including contract work. The majority of the time, changes came about because of issues that were the results of management policy changes that almost always tended to emphasize that the grunts like me were chess pieces (pawns) and utterly interchangeable.
I never wanted the headaches and responsibility that goes with a management position, primarily because I always decided in favor of family instead of work when there was a conflict. Now that I have decades of experience and observation, however, I can state that I saw many, many cases of management protecting and supporting each other and the competence of the individual being protected rarely seemed to be an important consideration. This was usually most evident when grunts like myself were being made subject to more stringent policies, downsizing, pay "adjustments" for the good of the organization, and benefits reduction, also for the good of the organization.
I made my choice and I accept the ping-pong path I had to follow, as well as the other career negatives that come with it. But I can absolutely understand a person who has a chance to go into management (or is already in management) wanting to advance in the managerial path. At most organizations I have seen (as an admitted outsider to the management club) it appears that you need to get to at least director level to enjoy any real value for climbing the corporate ladder.
So for those who choose to advance through management, I wish you the greatest of success. It was just never for me.
P.S. I was once offered a managerial position and performed in it for a few months while the company was looking for a permanent engineering manager. While I was not in it long enough to truly understand all the implications, I was not comfortable and did not much enjoy it - though that could have been simply my prejudice against it because of my life decision to avoid management.
Any way, that's my two cents (which is really zero after taxes!)
I have 45 years in aviation as a technician and engineer. I give that only as background info with no attempt to imply I am an expert or an authority. It is just to let you know I have seen a bit of this life. What I have personally chosen to do is avoid management my entire career. It has worked well for me, as I prefer to be involved in the nuts and bolts of design. However, I will also admit that I have worked at several locations including contract work. The majority of the time, changes came about because of issues that were the results of management policy changes that almost always tended to emphasize that the grunts like me were chess pieces (pawns) and utterly interchangeable.
I never wanted the headaches and responsibility that goes with a management position, primarily because I always decided in favor of family instead of work when there was a conflict. Now that I have decades of experience and observation, however, I can state that I saw many, many cases of management protecting and supporting each other and the competence of the individual being protected rarely seemed to be an important consideration. This was usually most evident when grunts like myself were being made subject to more stringent policies, downsizing, pay "adjustments" for the good of the organization, and benefits reduction, also for the good of the organization.
I made my choice and I accept the ping-pong path I had to follow, as well as the other career negatives that come with it. But I can absolutely understand a person who has a chance to go into management (or is already in management) wanting to advance in the managerial path. At most organizations I have seen (as an admitted outsider to the management club) it appears that you need to get to at least director level to enjoy any real value for climbing the corporate ladder.
So for those who choose to advance through management, I wish you the greatest of success. It was just never for me.
P.S. I was once offered a managerial position and performed in it for a few months while the company was looking for a permanent engineering manager. While I was not in it long enough to truly understand all the implications, I was not comfortable and did not much enjoy it - though that could have been simply my prejudice against it because of my life decision to avoid management.
Any way, that's my two cents (which is really zero after taxes!)
HamburgerHelper
Electrical
Management is a skill set that I don't think inherently anyone is born with. Some most definitely are better than other but all the very good ones worked at it like you would any other skill or trade. I wish the pay was such not to draw people who had no inclination or desire to manage and it is a skill in of itself. It is very easy to turn a great engineer or anyone really into a mediocre manager with a promotion. I don't know what to say about this though. It is a slippery position and there are very few who are good.
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If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.
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If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.
I have been both in management and core technical. I started as designer in a starting company with Japanese technical collaboration. Though I took an MBA in early 70's, I decided to continue with core engineering, development and design of power products for T&D as I enjoyed that function. But management wanted me to be head of an ailing business unit in early 1990s( putting up substations as EPC contractor and consultancy)with P&L responsibility.
Though I was not interested, management had faith in me and so I reluctantly took up the challenge but retaining R &D function of the main line as I did not want to loose touch with main products. Though many thought I will be an utter failure based on my engineering back ground, to their surprise I could turn it around, increase turnover and profits multifold. After four years, management gave me back my earlier role at my request.
In beginning of this century when I left the company (I was GM with responsibility for all functions except finance and sales) to be a technical manager in an MNC who was putting up a new production unit, I was listening to my passion, though a job may be, without glamor. So last 52 years I am enjoying my job though to many it may be monotonous or not challenging.
So it all depends- understand your strengths and weaknesses and choose a role where you can leverage your strengths and can enjoy your work.
Though I was not interested, management had faith in me and so I reluctantly took up the challenge but retaining R &D function of the main line as I did not want to loose touch with main products. Though many thought I will be an utter failure based on my engineering back ground, to their surprise I could turn it around, increase turnover and profits multifold. After four years, management gave me back my earlier role at my request.
In beginning of this century when I left the company (I was GM with responsibility for all functions except finance and sales) to be a technical manager in an MNC who was putting up a new production unit, I was listening to my passion, though a job may be, without glamor. So last 52 years I am enjoying my job though to many it may be monotonous or not challenging.
So it all depends- understand your strengths and weaknesses and choose a role where you can leverage your strengths and can enjoy your work.
truckandbus
Automotive
Two of the three companies I have worked for have parallel technical and management career paths. Neither of the two companies had issues with people changing paths if it made sense forboth the company and the person involved.
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