Lazy designers/drafters 16

[JsTyLz]

I am not saying all designers or drafters are lazy, but for me it is like pulling teeth to get one of them to work. Of course I always get the project done in time, and in all honesty I generally expect more out of people than what they do themselves. I am just wondering how many other engineers out there have designers/drafters working for them and what they do/did to get them to work. I am thinking about going to my boss, but I think I should address the issue with this person first too. I guess this is half venting and half curiosity if other people go through this stuff too.

Stylz signing off

 

[JMirisola]

When you say "getting one of them to work", are you referring in general or getting them to work on your stuff? Is the designer/drafter assigned only to you? Do others think that this person is lazy or unmotivated?

Jeff Mirisola, CSWP
CAD Administrator
SW '07 SP2.0, Dell M90, Intel 2 Duo Core, 2GB RAM, nVidia 2500M

http://designsmarter.typepad.com/jeffs_blog

 

[ctopher]

I have experienced this for the past 20+ years.
A lot of drafters/designers (mostly drafters) are non-degreed and are generally lazy. More so the past 10 years. A lot of engineers do their own dwgs because of this reason, and other reasons.

Chris
SolidWorks 07 4.0/PDMWorks 07
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 04-21-07)

 

[TheTick]

CAD trolls! I despise them. Fire them and hire ones that work.

Remind them frequently that they are paid to do a job, and you expect that job to be done.

Things you can do:
[ul][li]Be a good supervisor. Keep tabs on workloads and priorities.[/li]
[li]Be clear with your expectations.[/li]
[li]Learn enough CAD so that you have a good feel for what a task requires.[/li][/ul]

 

[NCDesign]

JsTyLz you are not alone. I think you are seeing a difference in the attitude of the people. As an engineer you expect work to be done efficiently and correctly. In general mistakes are o.k. as long as they are learned from and not repeated. Also, we tend to find our own answers to questions.
Designers/drafters are a different breed. A large chunk of them will screw everything up trying to impress you with how quickly they can get something done or will take forever because they are overly cautious about making any mistakes. I have also found that a good chunk of them tend to not learn from their mistakes and don't really care about finding solutions to their problems. Gotta love it when they will sit in front of their computer, doing absolutely nothing, for 45 minutes because they aren't sure about something they are doing. They don't bother to try and find an answer or find you to ask a question. They just wait for you to check-in on their progress. I won't even get into consistency. I always get blank stares when I remind them to be consistent.
For the most part they are designers/drafters, and not engineers, for a reason. We just get the joy of dealing with it everyday as we try to stay productive.

 

[ctopher]

... and don't rely on them to incorporate GD&T on the dwgs. Everything will be +/- .005 !

Chris
SolidWorks 07 4.0/PDMWorks 07
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 04-21-07)

 

[ewh]

Hey now! Please don't paint us all with such a broad brush!

 

[ctopher]

I say "a lot of them", not "all".
I was a drafter for a long time, but got a education and learnded things.

Chris
SolidWorks 07 4.0/PDMWorks 07
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 04-21-07)

 

[NCDesign]

I try and not pigeon hole all of them. I've currently got 2 out of 8 that are really picking things up and none of what I wrote above applies. However, I've also been through 3 additional ones in the last year that fit right in to what I said above and did as TheTick suggested. I just have to keep reminding myself that they can spend twice as long on something and it still costs less money. I just need to always figure it will take them three times as long as it should.

 

[josephv]

Hi Stylz,

I am curious... are the drafters/designers that you are referring to working with AutoCAD or a 2D drafting tool or are they working with a solid modeller (e.g. SolidWorks, Pro/E, CATIA etc...)?

The reason I say this is because I find 2D drafting to be painfully boring (am glad I don't work with it), but I enjoy the 3D stuff.

cheers,

 

[JsTyLz]

They are working with UG which is a solid modeling package.

I used to be a Design Engineer, but now I am a product engineer. Main difference being I am not involved with every aspect of the design as much as I used to be and also I do some but minimal amount of the modeling and none of the drafting. I check the drawings and keep asking questions they don't understand. Example, I asked why do you remove all of the revisions and place remodeled and redrawn. I hate that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I want to see every revision ever made on that part on one print. That is the idea behind revision blocks... I guess that is slightly off topic, but never the less relates to the laziness because I found out that all drawings are being put on a modified/updated/new title block. So instead of copying all of the old revisions the lazy... I mean they easy way to do it is to rely on our microfiche system to keep the records and not the print itself.

One way I have already started to help myself with this problem is by asking my boss for the same CAD package and computer they use. I can't wait to spin circles around this one particular designer especially, vengeance is sweet my friends!

 

[ewh]

I do have to agree that of all of the designers that I have worked with, most are not as efficient as they should be.

3D CAD jockeys can be just as lazy as 2D.

Replacing revisions with "revised and redrawn" is permissable under ASME standards, if the revision history is a long one or the changes are substantial. This is not always laziness. It stems from being able to change board drawings only so many times before they become illegible.
I have only worked in one or two places where the change was described in the revision block. The change control document is usually listed, instead.

 

[KENAT]

Well,

When it comes to creating drawings on average I've found Engineers worse than Designers Drafters.

But maybe this is mainly due to where I'm currently working (just look at some of my posts on the GD&T forum).

At my last place in the UK, the non degreed "Design Engineers" they had when I started were highly competent and I had no problem having the word "Engineer" in their title.

A couple of the CAD Jockey temps we got were shocking and a couple of the new hires weren't as good as the old timers.

At my current employer...

The 2-3 Designers/Checkers in my department here don't have degrees but are good, the checker (before he was let go) was excellent (poster child for someone without degree being allowed to use the term engineer).

In fact they are a lot better than any of the Engineers here when it comes to drawing creation.

We also get a lot of interns doing drafting work as a big part of their placement and for the most part they are pretty good (at least the ones in our department, must be the supervision )

So I guess I have a problem saying lazy Designers/Drafters because given the chance Engineers seem just as bad.

Also look at training/qualification.

A bunch of CAD courses do not a drafter/designer make. I've posted before that CAD training typically teaches you what the CAD can do, not what you should do with the CAD. I don't think any CAD training I've ever done emphasized adherence with standards or how to achieve this with.

I don't know about modern Associated Degrees etc but the good designers/drafters I’ve worked with have been over 40 and the best of them had some kind of Engineering education such as an apprenticeship HNC/HND.


KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[KENAT]

agree with ewy on revised & redrawn.

While in your case it may be lazyness in general it isn't.



KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[JsTyLz]

Whay have revision block and grid system and not use it? I came a place that kept all changes on the print. This obviously can be changed if revised and redrawn from a hand drawing, but on an electronic I don't care if ASME says it is permissable, the changes should be written on both the print and the change control document. Aerospace might be differnet than automotive manufacturing, but the revision tell a great deal about the evolution of the part, where tolerances have been relaxed, when suppliers requested change, etc. Why not have that info on the print, if it gets cluttered, copy and put on a size larger print. (and be sure to write in the rev block that the drawing went from C to D size 8'> hahaha)

 

[KENAT]

To me having all the detail on the drawing makes a messy drawing.

I prefer just a reference to the ECO (or whatever it's called).

In this case the ECO needs to have adequate detail and be sent out with new revisions of the drawing (this assumes you have controlled copies of drawings which most places don't seem to).

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[JsTyLz]

As for Engineers not being good at drafting I can agree with you, but in terms of modeling I will disagree...
But what I am trying to explain is that some of the modern day designers I work with want to be drafters/modelers, if that makes any sense. They don't want to design they want to be one dimensional in that sense. I expect a certain level of involvement in the design and a good knowledge of manufacturing practices before I would recommend someone for hire as a designer. Drafters of the old are extinct nowadays, or soon will be, perhaps I should have used obsolete (under ASME Y14.5 - 1994)

 

[ewh]

"Whay have revision block and grid system and not use it?"
It IS still used with separate change documents.

It keeps thinks less cluttered, better organized and just plain easier to read if it refers to a separate change document.

Some might think of it as lazy for someone to not keep change records with their drawing prints.

 

[JsTyLz]

KENAT,
if you are refernecing the revision bubbles most companies use, I agree that all revisions would be a messy, messy drawing, but a description of the change in the rev block should be kept clean and with adequate space around it. As long as the dimensions and views are fully visible I don't care if some puts free hand marks and swirls all around the edge of the page, messy means nothing as long as the component is visible and the required number of views are used to effectively make/check the part. I guess thats my preference, I wish everyon thought like me... damn I was dreaming again.

 

[KENAT]

JsTyLz, then you've been fortunate with the Engineers you've worked with.

Models I see from engineers often have failed/unconstrained etc features, poor order of features, bear little resemblance to the dimension scheme on the drawing, changing one dimension makes the model fail... (need I go on)

I agree that a CAD Monkey who knows all the buttons on the CAD system but has no engineering background is of little use.

While I haven't investigated it I have a suspicion it's because their training/education primarily dealt with CAD operation with very little drafting and almost no 'Fundamentals of Engineering' or equivalent practical experience.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...