Land Development versus Other Civil Engineering 5

[UCD2SD]

I recently accepted a job at a reputable Land Development and Site Development firm. This will be my first job in Civil Engineering (I graduate in a couple months) and I am worried about my decision because I have heard from some people that Land Development is looked at as a "lower form of engineering".

I want to make sure I will be getting valuable engineering experience to build my resume for future employment. Is there anyone that has worked in Land Development that can give me some advice?

Thanks.

 

[proletariat]

I'm in LD, and I think it is looked down upon by the other branches of civil. As a matter of fact, I distinctly remember telling a highway engineer what I did, and he laughed and sarcastically said he could use another mini-storage near his house. I think structural is the only one justified in their lofty self-importance over the lowly LD engineer. (I suck at the structural engineering and am awed by them somewhat).

However, I chose LD for several reasons.

1. You are close to those that bankroll projects. If you are a sub of a sub of a sub, you are far far away from where the transactions take place. I think that it is to your benefit to rub elbows with those close to the purse. Investment bankers make a metric assload of money because they are in close proximity to where money changes hands.

2. You do a little of everything. Every type of discipline is represented on a LD project. If you decide you want to learn geotech, stormwater, traffic, structural (blech), water resources, utilities, etc., you can apply all of this on your project. I would shoot myself in the head if I had to design one thing all the time. THE KEY IS TO GET ON BOARD A MULTIDISCIPLINARY FIRM THAT HAS REPRESENTATIVES IN ANY/ALL OF THESE AREAS. They can teach you. Do not get on board with a firm that subs out all the real engineering.

3. It would be cool to be a developer one day and I would like to do my own engineering. If I ever come into millions to start doing my own developments, I will be well prepared to cut out a portion of the expense if I can do it myself. The alternative is being heavily into construction so I could actually build the project myself. However, the overhead of a startup construction company is astronomical.

4. My personality is well suited for LD. You have to be an outgoing type A (or at least it helps). I like to perform, speak publicly, argue, talk on the phone, etc. Clicking a mouse button all day is unappealing to me.

The bottom line is that you can learn as much or as little of real engineering as you see fit. If you have something to prove, or are hung up on prestige, go get a masters to show you can cut it academically.

 

[francesca]

I worked in LD in a small middle-TN town after a few years of transport planning in the bright lights of big cities (London, Cape Town).

Land development is not glamorous, but it is fun. As proletariat said, you do a little of everything. Probably not enough of everything to get you safely through your PE without significant revision/study, but enough to keep you amused if you get bored quickly (as I do).

Another boredom alleviator is that your projects have a quick turn-over. You'll typically design a site in a month, revise the drawings a month later after they've been sent for permitting, and make small tweaks during construction. No two sites are the same, so designing three detention basins in a week does not necessarily get repetitive.

Two things I'd like to add to proletariat's post are:

1. Your design approach is not "what's the best way I could engineer this?" but rather "how can I engineer this to maximize the profit for my client?" This is slightly different to the "how can I optimize my design to minimize cost and maximize safety?" approach used in "regular" civil engineering. As designer, you are directly responsible for the profits of your client. Most "normal" civil engineering projects are not so closely tied to revenue generation (except perhaps toll roads, where you have to get the traffic forecasts right, but even then it'll be 10 years before you'll know if the operator broke even).

2. You need to ride the exceptionally fine line between doing "the minimum you can get away with" and not getting sued. Two law suits from projects I was involved in were a result of a contractor's failure to install erosion prevention & sediment control (EPSC) measures which caused the destruction of an expensive exotic fish pond two property owners downstream, and the outfall of a detention basin carving a nice new ditch through a manicured lawn. In the former case, the contractor is completely to blame. In the latter case, there was nothing "wrong" with the design (although outfall velocity was greater than prior to the construction of the detention basin.)

You can do a lot worse than to start your career out in LD. You'll get exposed to many facets of civil engineering and it can help you to pick if you want to remain a generalist or direct you to your area of focus. You may well find that you enjoy the thrill of the fast buck of LD and it appeals to more than just your "engineer" side.

 

[TerryScan]

francesca,

I am sorry to hear of your experience in LD civil engineering. While it is a fairly typical approach for developers to have the "minimum you can get away with" approach, I believe it is the engineer's choice whether this standard is adopted.

I have worked at firms which have adopted the client's minimum standard, and I have worked where the professional (engineer) designs to a higher standard such as "minimize cost and maximize safety"...or even maximize longterm benefits (which may not be entirely what the client THINKS he wants - your pond velocity scenario may exemplify this).

 

[proletariat]

I tend to design more conservatively than my company would like. I have had to dig my heels in and refuse to seal some things because of safety issues. Sometimes they relent, sometimes someone else seals it. It's much like a girl witholding sex to get what she wants. If you don't have a PE license, you have little to worry about.

 

[nutbutter]

Land Development is great. Proletariat brought up some great points. The fact that you have all aspects of civil engineering on a land development project makes it the perfect place to start.

I think LD is the best place to get your experience. I started out as an ENV ENG for 3 years at a well-respected consulting firm. I got horrible engineering experience at this company. Don't get me wrong, I picked up great professional skills, but no engineering experience.

Since I made the move to LD about a 1.5 years ago, I've learned 10x what I learned at my previous job. I don't know how someone can say that land development engineers are less skilled than other engineers. You'll be doing it all eventually. Structural, Water Resources, Geotechnical, Transporation, and ENV can all be different aspects of the land development field.

Peace,
Stoddardvilla

 

[marktomato]

I was in Transportation/Public Works Engineering for 2-1/2 years right after school and left after I passed my P.E. I am currently working as a developer's financial consultant and wish I had the land development experience you are going to get. It might not be as complicated as structural engineering, but with the real estate market being so good the last few years they were laughing themselves to the bank.
I believe the best engineers are the ones who think like business men. Learn everything you can about land development in 4-5 years, pass the P.E., move to project management, then perhaps be a developer or get into land aquisition. The key thing is learn how to do something that many people don't know how to do...then market your skills. There are plenty of engineers who design highways, storm drain, water sewer etc. It does not have to be rocket science....just think outside the box.

 

[nutbutter]

Working on a land development project is like solving a puzzle. There's many different solutions and you'll be rewarded for thinking creatively. To me, this is more enjoybable day by day than doing structural calcs anyway.

Peace,
Stoddard

 

[HgTX]

In general, one shouldn't worry about what other engineers think about one's chosen field. A lot of people think civil engineering as a whole is for mechanical engineer types who are bad at math. So?

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[proletariat]

A lot of people think civil engineering as a whole is for mechanical engineer types who are bad at math. So?

That's funny. That was my situation exactly. You can't imagine my relief when I learned that no civils ever use calculus once they get out of college.

 

[Screwtape]

I switched over to a firm that does a good bit of LD about this time last year. Prior to that, I did structural design for nearly 4 years after I graduated college. But, I found I didn't really like architects, so I made a change.

Even after a year, I'm still adjusting to the switch from "calculation heavy" structure design to LD and general civil engineering. Before, I didn't have to worry about permits, dam safety reports, planning commission meetings, and paperwork in general. With structural, it was either designing or drawing....now I work on many different things.

Doing LD does make picking a afternoon discipline for the PE exam tough, though. While you may work a little bit in WR, Transporation, and geotech, it's not really a specialty in any one area. I ended up taking geotech on Friday (yep, 2 days ago).

 

[xantics]

I've been in LD for almost 6 years now and still loving what I do. Like what many say in this post, LD, you pretty a "jack of all trades", master of none. Being a Land Development Engineer is exciting, rewarding (the pay is not bad at all) and challenging. You see many different site development genres, infill, tract homes, master planned developments, public infrastructure, etc... I've seen and been involved in many of this stuff. Having a social personality and being a bit aggressive and business minded will take you long way in this field. I would try LD for at least a year and see if you like it. I certainly do. Good luck.