JIC IEC IEE and bears oh my

[FritzSchmidt]

Greetings all!

I have recently discovered this area of the web and hope to become a contributing member.

I am recently employed a a company which creates One-Off mechatronics devices.

Beause of the nature of our machines it is cost prohibitive to submit each creation to the UL/CSA/TUV/XYZ agencies for approval/certification.

I intend to spec in UL approved sub-assemblies and give the customer a choice of schematic format.
My questions to you are;
1-Which of the several "Standards" are most prominent?
2-Whiich software would be flexible in such away to allow creation in the 2 most common "Standards"
3-Would you change this policy, if so please advise.

I thank you all

 

[VEBill]

External power supplies are commonly used to avoid UL certifications (assuming everything is low voltage). I believe that PCs have their power supplies mounted the way they do for the same reason (inside, but external).

Disclaimer - await second opinions.

 

[itsmoked]

I think you're right VE1.

You use an approved supply then low voltage covers the rest - same as panel shops. They don't get every single panel individually UL'd they instead run with a "UL shop" methodology. They use UL approved/labeled wire connectors, fuses, crimpers, etc,etc. They pay the graft, er,.. I mean fees required to be a UL panel shop and then the UL guy shows up occasionally to inspect things in general for a few $ and business continues. That's the mode I'd think you'd want to be in.

UL offers classes in running this way.

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.-

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[dpc]

I believe UL 508 is the relevant standard...

 

[dpc]

And there is a UL forum on this site.

 

[FritzSchmidt]

Gretings Alle,
thank you much for your input.
The panel is basically the enclosure of r low voltage servo amplifiers and logical controllers.

Should we apply to UL for PAnel Shop status?

 

[logbook]

Sorry to be a kill joy but for European certification (CE) there is a well known formula
CE + CE != CE
(the != means not equal)
In words, taking CE marked parts does to make a CE marked product. This is particularly true for EMC, but also applies to safety.

Let's take a simple case for say EN60950 (or IEC60950 or UL60950 if you prefer). You are not allowed to make a mechanicaly unstable product. It has to stand on an inclined ramp at about 10 degrees. If you put the parts in the wrong place it will tip over and therefore fail the standard. Using approved sub-assmeblies helps a lot, but it still requires extra work.

 

[LionelHutz]

UL508A is for control panels. It's basically a rule book that allows you to combine properly used UL listed parts into a control panel and label it as a UL listed product. You can also use cUL listed parts and sell a cUL listed panel in Canada.

 

[FritzSchmidt]

Greetings Alle,
again I am in awe of the help provided here.
If I were to use UL508a, along with IEC 671 symbols on my drawings would I be covering most bets? How does the NFPA 79 fit into all of this?

 

[jraef]

Very few users in the US are accustomed to IEC symbols on schematics. Some may accept it, but will not like it because electricians are not trained to read them here.

 

[FritzSchmidt]

Hello Again Alle,
To: jraef,
what would your suggestion be in this case as described above?
Most of our applications are in the US, but occaisionally the end user will ship to another country.
Which synbology should be used for US, and then which ones for acceptablitiy for most other nations?
What type of drawings should accompany the schematics?
Since we are getting requests for some kind of agency, UL et al, which would be the best choice?

 

[controlsdude]

If you get a copy of NFPA 79 2007 you will see the differences in JIC and IEC standard symbology. Europeans love IEC for some reason, but it seems like JIC is the accepted standard in the US. I have used IEC only because that is all that was provided, and yes it is hard to understand at first, and this would be extra hard on electricians. But I have found industrial electricians will surprise you on their knowledge.

UL listed enclosure will definitely help you with all industrial installations and get the area electrical inspector to sign off on your projects.

Canadian project do require cUL but it seems even though you get it CSA approved before it ships the local CSA inspector will always inspect it anyway, (must be a scam) and of course in his opinion finds something wrong.

anything that ships to europe needs CE sticker, but this is a different animal altogether. Its not just components having CE stickers. I found the estop is totally different in CE countries versus the US. Other things I am sure are different. Electromagnetic interference, voltage interference, etc ... I am not that familiar with it but when I see a machine panel shipped from europe you will see Estop, finger safe, and of course CE marked devices. I believe their is more but I am not sure.

 

[ozmosis]

Maybe I have mis-understood your question but it does depend where you are going to be selling your devices. If they are to be sold in N.America then yes, you will need to investigate UL approvals and the subsequent types for your subsequent product/machines. If they are sold in Europe then CE marking is necessary and the subsequent standards are required (LV Directive standards, EMC standards, Machinary Directive standards). If products are going to China then CCC needs looking into, Russia and GOST needs looking into, Australia =C-tick etc etc.
It depends where you are going to be selling your products. UL is not necessary in Europe. CE marking is not required in the USA.

 

[richs]

Hiya-

Here in the US and you have any sort of computing power in the panels (or any high frequency stuff about about 32KHz) then you also have the joy of FCC approvals.....

And the list goes on.

Cheers,

Rich S.