Is there any use learning all fire related codes by heart? 5

[laminarpath]

If one had the ability to quickly memorize NFPA codes/standards perfectly by heart and completely understand it all also, is there any high paying jobs for such a person that would utilize multiple skills, or is it best to specialize in one or two areas (such as sprinkler design, fire hazards) even if you had a superhuman memory?

Thanks!

(yes I know that other careers would be wiser for such a person)

 

[laminarpath]

@NewtonFP's above post

Thanks that is a really clear description,
I can see what you mean, but why wouldn't experienced sprinkler designers write about this in guidebooks, not the standards or codes, but 'how to design sprinkler systems' type books?

it seems like it would be a no brainer to include the type of information you just referenced

if you can look at some plans and be able to spot problem areas, this must be based on logic that was learned from previous jobs, such as "this type of room needs to be left very flexible especially in regard to sprinkler placement" or whatever. I don't see why that also couldn't be written in a guidebook..

not saying someone writes books this way, just saying that they should, isn't the goal to make sprinkler design efficient and inexpensive as possible for the designer, to have better functioning systems and less band aids and corner cutting? it just is beyond me why the retired designers would not pass on their knowledge in book form for the rookies to stop the immense waste of time and effort involved in 'learning it the hard way'.

for example, if everyone had done this since the beginning, we could still be cavemen since no one took the time to teach the cavechildren how to do things more efficiently, and left it up to them to waste their lifetime trial and erroring until the ripe old age of 40 (when they died back then), they finally break through and catch up to their ancestors, only to not pass on their knowledge and die once again.

 

[Oremus]

Book knowledge is only half of what's required to design sprinkler systems. The other half consists in knowing general construction material, the ability to effectively read plans and understand what it is you're looking at, and the ability to look at the other trades' plans and know what's going to pose an obstruction. I've known people fresh out of 'sprinkler design school' who make the most humiliating blunders because they simply did not have the knowledge of basic construction materials and concepts (such as not knowing what a TJI is and deciding to run a 4" main THROUGH them)

A familiarity with the other trades' plans and terminology also goes a long way. I've had to re-design other designer's work because they had a good working knowledge of the structural components but they lacked the ability to coordinate with the MPE's plans and failed to realize that while there is a 24" concealed space between the bottom of the TJI's and the ceiling there is also a 22" duct going in that space.

I'm sure we can all provide a lot of anecdotes in this regard but the bottom line is NFPA is only half the equation.

 

[pipesnpumps]

Laminar, i wonder if you are just trolling all of us, or if you cant accept there are some things in life that just can't be learned from a book. Even when they can, learning from a book is much slower than learning from an expert.

It is not that retired guys with knowledge refuse to educate idealistic young students.. Really they would love to make some retirement money off their knowledge. But they know it wouldn't be possible to put that kind of knowledge in book form, and the only way to learn is to actually do the work, not read about doing the work.

Real world knowledge doesn't fall out of the sky on a parachute, but rather is gained in small increments during moments of panic or curiosity.

 

[TravisMack]

Even if you could put it in a book, it would be a very arduous task. I doubt there are more than 50,000 sprinkler designers in the US. Of that, maybe 10% would buy a book like that. The time it takes to do something like this would be very excessive. The return on your investment would be almost nil. So, in a truly altruistic form, it would be great. I can't think of anyone willing to undertake such a task.

Most of us do what we can to help teach those within our spheres of influence. Hopefully, they will pass that information along to the next guy when the time comes. I have tried to honor my mentors by providing help to designers with less experience. That way, I can pass on what I have learned to the future of this industry.

Do I wish I could do more? Yes! Is it practical? NO!

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[laminarpath]

Laminar, i wonder if you are just trolling all of us, or if you cant accept there are some things in life that just can't be learned from a book. Even when they can, learning from a book is much slower than learning from an expert.

In one of my earlier posts in this very thread, I said this, "such as the 'proper feeling of weight to put on the brake of a car to slow it to a stop without causing unnecessary wear on the brake, screeching, or dangerous sliding such as on a slippery surface'. THAT is an example of something you can't teach in a book. "

That shows that I accept some things in life just can't be learned from a book. I even classed an entire group of things into a skill called motor skills. My goal here is to gather information and try and prepare myself in sprinkler design field by gathering as much awareness as possible. Already experienced people here have told me it's not practical or impossible to teach their learned knowledge, yet there have been example of people making me aware of some of this unknown knowledge and it only took a single line of text. Doubting my character and questioning my intentions is fine, now I've told you I'm not trolling, there is nothing more I can do to convince you, so make up your mind for yourself and try to remain respectful, as accusing people of trolling is just starting fires.

Of course, I still find it hard to believe that such things could be taught by experts individually to trainees, yet it's not worth it to make a collective repository (in the form of book or training video) to save the time of having to do these spoken demonstrations to trainees all across the map. If experts can teach trainees these things in person, then what are they using besides words (which can be written on paper) and visual concepts (which can be put into pictures in books).

An ardous task, that would only need to be done once and save the time and effort of every expert taking valuable time out of their day to train every trainee from theoretical ground zero.

 

[cdafd]

Yea there may be a few people that can pick up a book on how to fly a plane, read it, and get the plane off the ground

But more than likely not that many out there


This is like other trades you have to start at the bottom

Would to hear from others, but more than likely 60% of the jobs they do have dome unique problem

 

[chicopee]

If you were to memorize all the codes, it would mean that you have too much time on yours hands and you would not be able to do you job. What do you do when the codes change? Articulate absolete sections and embarass the company you work for.
As far as I am concerned, specialize in few of the codes and be familiar with related codes.

 

[TravisMack]

specialize in few of the codes and be familiar with related codes

This is probably the most correct statement on here so far. NFPA 13, 13R, 14 and 20 are the most commonly used standards in my work. I probably have 80% of 13 and 13R memorized, about 50% of 14 and about 35% of 20 memorized just from using them so much. For the parts I don't have memorized, I know where to look to get the answers. My work is associated with the IBC and IFC. I familiarize myself with the sections of those codes that pertain to my work. For areas outside of that, I defer to the experts in those areas.



Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[DavidCR]

I think Laminar has a point in that here is a lack of good books in this area. There are, but I think that not many as in other fields.

Maybe we don´t have in our lines many good writers, or as some have commented it is not an easy field to write.


Seems that most things are not laminar..., but turbulent.

 

[MGXFP]

Really, I think Robert Gagnon wrote a terrific book about designing sprinkler systems from start to finish.

http://www.amazon.com/Design-Water-Based-Fire-Protection-Systems/dp/0827378831

I highly recommend this book, I have read it several times and while it is dated, the concepts, science and math have not changed.

 

[Wilder]

@laminarpath

I read your question "Why isn't there a book...", isn't this just one chapter of a larger internet based book based on a need of an individual that will (assuming everyone knows about eng-tips)educate someone with the same question?

Here is a section of code that shows what the forum is trying to explain:

8.6.7 Ceiling Pockets.
8.6.7.1 Sprinklers shall be required in all ceiling pockets.
8.6.7.2 The requirements of 8.6.7.1 shall not apply where all of the following are met:
(1) The total volume of the unprotected ceiling pocket does not exceed 1000 ft3.
(2) The depth of the unprotected pocket does not exceed 36 in.
(3) The entire floor under the unprotected ceiling pocket is protected by the sprinklers at the lower ceiling elevation.
(4) Each unprotected ceiling pocket is separated from any adjacent unprotected ceiling pocket by a minimum 10 ft horizontal distance.
(5) The unprotected ceiling pocket is constructed of noncombustible or limited combustible construction.
(6) Skylights not exceeding 32 ft2 shall be permitted to have a plastic cover.
(7) Quick response sprinklers are utilized throughout the compartment.

Straight and to the point...kind of. Imagine this scenario: Two adjacent conference rooms share a common wall. Each of these rooms have a ceiling pocket: 900 ft³, 35" deep, floor protection has been satisfied, pocket location is 4' from that common wall separating the rooms, construction is noncombustible and QR is used. Does this scenario satisfy the above conditions?

If you say no, then you interpret that the wall does not matter with regard to spacing even though #7 utilizes walls. (definition of "Compartment. A space completely enclosed by walls and a ceiling. The compartment enclosure is permitted to have openings to an adjoining space if the openings have a minimum lintel depth of 8 in. (203 mm) from the ceiling.
If you say yes, then you utilize the wall and ignore minimum 10' horizontal spacing requirement.

Either way you are interpreting the intent of this section of code and cannot directly apply this code to a common ceiling feature in today’s world even if this section was only added in 2002, and subsequently amended in 2007 & 2010 because of interpretations.

You have just rewritten the "All in one" book 3 times in 8 years to incorporate one addition and two revisions of a single code section.

One book cannot be written to account for every scenario, every condition, even if the combined knowledge can be collected, concentrated, and then released as such without interpretation and kept current. This sub-field of a very broad and diverse set is constantly moving and evolving. Uncommon today becomes common tomorrow and a book like you describe could not be productive to those who would undertake that feat to write it, or to the people that would be able to read and apply that much knowledge. Would you even need a degree with a book like this?

I don't know of many good Techs/FPE's/BCO/and others, that do not keep a NFPA within arms reach (most are looking now) along with their experiences all bound into some well loved 3 ring binder or folder that, while may be common knowledge now, was a part of a solid design foundation that was passed on to them from a previously drawing board/field groomed elder. I myself am a student of at least 3 of the respondants above and will continue to learn provided the right questions are asked.

Dan

 

[cdafd]

something for lamin

http://www.nfsa.org/cgi-bin/trcalendar.cgi

http://www.nfsa.org/cgi-bin/onlinelist.cgi

http://www.sprinklerecampus.com/

http://www.firesprinkler.org/downloads/AFSA-4040.pdf

 

[laminarpath]

@Wilder

If something can really be interpreted multiple ways then you would of course do the safest option possible, rather than use the wording to say that you can get away with this or that, as a code is generally laying out minimum standards/rules and not meant to be interpreted to mean that shortcuts are okay.

I don't think a book could be written for every scenario - just the ones that are common field problems, not just theoretical ones. I also don't agree at all that changing a couple of things in standards/codes renders a book tailored to the codes beforehand useless, you just update your knowledge on the new sections or altered/removed sections. I don't see any logic suggesting why this would be difficult.

 

[TravisMack]

I don't see any logic suggesting why this would be difficult.

Well, I see what your senior thesis should be. It seems like this is an easy undertaking for you. What Dan was saying is that a book like this would likely take a few years to write and go through editing. By the time it is done and ready for publication, it is likely that the standards will change and you are already out of date.

Some things just take experience and doing it. Just because you passed the driving exam at age 16, are you automatically a perfect driver, or do you get better by experience? That is how this job is. You can get a good understanding of the applicable codes/standards, but you need time in the job to get an understanding of application. I realize you don't understand this right now, but you will after a few years in the industry.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[DavidCR]

Newton
I do have Gagnon´s book. I agree, it is excellent. I just think there are not that many. Any more recommendations?

 

[NJ1]

Bro

Hands down this is the most irrelevant topic VS the actual purpose of this website. This is a website to learn and share code related issues and debate between the most correct answer against code interpretation. Nobody cares about learning all codes by heart. If you can do that you need to move to another planet.
Scientist says that our brain works at 7% of its capacity. Albert Einstein worked at 14% of its capacity. With that said if you can live your daily life and still memorize all standards then you must be working at around 20% which puts you in a different whole category not recognized nor endorsed by any human kind.
So please stop with the non sense.
Yes it would be nice to learn all fire related codes by heart but at the end you could end up forgetting your social security number which makes an alien.
So what is the use

 

[NJ1]

Ok look

At first I made many mistakes in this website by being aggressive, condescending, ignorant, etc., however one thing we would like in here is that when you ask a question you be more precise about such question.
In your case your question seems to be too broad.
For example:
Fire Related Codes?
NFPA aka National Fire Protection Association has more than 2,000 fire related code books and standards
My questions to you is: are you talking about fire sprinkler related codes? Fire stopping and caulking related codes? Fire Pumps related codes? so on, so on, so on.

What are you referring to.

Also you did not specified from what year to what year.
Are you talking current, past, 70's, 80's, etc.
This is important to.

Also do not forget than IBC, IFC, and other refer to fire codes as well.

Next time narrow your question so that we can all help in a constructive way.

 

[laminarpath]

Your opinion is your right, everyone has one, you have no right to deem something irrelevant or valueless for other people.

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=305808&page=1

That thread was started because of this thread, for example.

You're incorrect about the brain % use of common people vs Einstein, first of all the brain % myth is extremely misleading - we use virtually all of our brain, just not all at the same time - some people have more developed brains in certain areas, like musicians, and is not isolated down to geniuses like Einstein.

My question was framed as precisely as needed, any more precise and it would have changed the question from what I wanted to know. Basically it was a very specific question - Is there any job out there that would fit the bill of someone who was a jack-of-all trades in knowledge of fire related issues, heavily involving memory (like a master mathematician in the math field, called a polymath), or is there only specialized jobs.

Can't get any more specific than that for this question, your latest posts are just asking to start pointless arguments and are not productive or sensical.

 

[Oremus]

If one had the ability to quickly memorize NFPA codes/standards perfectly by heart and completely understand it all also, is there any high paying jobs for such a person that would utilize multiple skills

"high paying" = $60K - $80K

or is it best to specialize in one or two areas (such as sprinkler design, fire hazards) even if you had a superhuman memory?

If you have a "superhuman memory" why would you reduce yourself to only one or two areas? "High paying" then becomes 'average paying' which you could expect to be $40K - $50K in this field.

Superhuman memories do more advanced engineering than fire protection.

 

[arion]

@laminarpath I am a little late in the game on this thread, but I would like to recommend a book I read and found very helpful if you are looking for a savant-like memory capacity. It's called "Mind Performance Hacks" by Ron Hale-Evans and many sections are on memory tricks that I have found to be incredibly useful. I have memorized many of my own personal numbers, credit cards, bank accounts, Bible verses, etc just by the application of these memory techniques. I have yet to have the time to sit down and apply these techniques on the NFPA 13 but believe that's the first thing I'm going to do as soon as I have a free day!