Is net zero possible for first world cities with current tech?

[GregLocock]

Copenhagen has access to lots of windmills. Its politicians and citizens claim to care. It doesn't have heavy industry, so its first world lifestyle is supported by third world CO2 emissions.In 2019 they thought they were pretty cool

https://www.washingtonpost.com/clim...-takes-be-carbon-neutral-family-city-country/

Betteridges law says no.

https://theconversation.com/net-zer...sts-doubt-on-other-major-climate-plans-190033

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[TugboatEng]

They blame "immature technology" for the failure. Meanwhile, elementary physics explains the failure. It only took a few back of a napkin calculations demonstrate how preposterous the gravity battery and wave generators are. We won't need new technology to make these carbon neutral technologies work, we're going to have to redefine physics.

 

[JoshPlumSE]

That's really not a surprise to anyone. But, I don't know that it should be categorized as a "failure". They've made progress, they've been aggressive with it. Their economy hasn't collapsed as a result..... They just haven't made as much progress as they'd hoped.

 

[TugboatEng]

Think of it like art. Cities spend a lot of money on art without collapsing their economies. They control and how much art to buy as it fits within their budget. The problem now is that cities are being required to buy $500k Hunter Biden's for the sake of buying art.

 

[dik]

They've been a lot more successful than a lot of other cities. Because of their relatively small population, the effect on the world has been minimal. The rest of the world has to catch up.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[GregLocock]

By exporting their CO2 generation to 3rd world countries? How does that help with what is claimed to be a global problem?


Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

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[TugboatEng]

They also make their cost of living so high that they export their younger generation as well. This way they can vote to make the rest of the world make the same mistakes.

 

[dik]

I guess you get what you pay for...

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[dik]

I'm not sure China is a 3rd world country, anymore. Can you imagine what the American, Canadian or Australian carbon footprint would be if they didn't import their stuff from China? China's per capita footprint is about half of these countries.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

That's why your numbers don't make any sense. How is China making everything for all of the world and not emitting any CO2?

 

[dik]

Sorry Tug... I didn't say they weren't. You keep making up statements. Their per capita carbon output is half the other protagonists mentioned and they are into heavy manufacturing. This simply means the other protagonists are outputting far more carbon than they should be and the China is doing much better than the others. It may mean that their manufacturing is newer and not as 'dirty' as the others.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[JoshPlumSE]

By exporting their CO2 generation to 3rd world countries? How does that help with what is claimed to be a global problem?

I'm not sure that there was really all that much manufacturing happening in Copenhagen itself that ended up getting exported to other countries. Maybe, but I don't know enough to say anything about it.

It's more like when and entire COUNTRY (or province or state) goes for "green" initiatives that causes their products to get made in other countries that aren't held to the same standards.

I'm all for the elitist cities (San Francisco, Manhattan, or such) to take these drastic measures. They will dramatically increase their energy costs. But, their elitist populations can afford it. The rest of us should learn from their mistake and do a more cost effective job..... probably by embracing nuclear energy.

 

[TugboatEng]

It may mean that their manufacturing is newer and not as 'dirty' as the others

Do you actually believe this?

 

[dik]

With their providing manufactured items for the rest of the world, it would help explain why their carbon footprint per capita is relatively low. I was offering it as an expoanation, but there's likey an element of truth to it.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

I really don't follow. Are they not producing carbon when providing the rest of the world with manufactured items?

Your per capita calculations seem to assign the worst numbers to oil producing countries. Qatar has one of the worst per capita numbers yet has zero manufacturing. Is China's number low because they import their energy?

If you're going to put the burden on the individual (per capita) you should start by criticizing the worst polluters. That would be John Kerry and Justin Trudeau. Most of us North Americans are quite frugal with our consumption.

 

[dik]

Oil and gas are also fossil fuels, not just coal... the other industrial nations provide a greater carbon footprint from these products. It's politically OK to blame China for their large coal related footpring, not realising that oil and gas contribute to the problem in a much bigger fashion.


Yes... many of the middle eastern countries have a very high carbon footprint per capitia... It's their 'ultra rich' lifestyle combined with a small population.

Look to the countries that have populations over 100 million.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

The Middle East OPEC countries are full of slaves. That should reduce their per capita carbon footprint by your logic. I guess China has the Uygurh slaves. Maybe that's how they keep their numbers down too.

 

[dik]

I suspect it's the ultra rich boats, planes and automobiles and having to use fossil fuel to produce their power that causes it. I suspect the slaves in the middle east and China don't have those luxuries and would tend to reduce the per capita value.... Just a thought though; I don't think the slaves in the middle east are running around in their Ferraris, but, I don't know for sure.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[GregLocock]

Copenhagen gets its electrical power from wind turbines, manufactured where?, and French nuclear, and coal burning powerplants in Germany and Poland. Massive exporting of CO2.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

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[JoshPlumSE]

There are books written about the off-shoring of manufacturing and the net effects it has on carbon emissions. And, it definitely increases the net carbon emissions. Here's the basics:

a) Some Europoean country passes laws that say all manufacturing has to use green energy.
b) Energy prices (and cost of manufacturing) go WAAAY up in that country.
c) Those manufacturing facilities decide it would be cheaper to build in China or such. And, they move their factory there. Keep in mind that this manufacturing was very automated and efficient in Germany because that's the only type of manufacturing that were left there due to higher cost of labor, land and such.
d) The green energy requirements do not exist in the area of china where the manufacturing has been shipped to. China uses more energy (and less green) than Germany had. So, more CO2 emissions per ton of goods manufactured. Then you have to ship the parts / goods all the way across the world back to germany where the consumers buy it.
e) Germany's CO2 footprint doesn't go down. Because they're still buying the same goods and no one is giving up their very high standard of living. AC in the summer, gas heaters in the winter.

The reason why China has a lower per capita CO2 emissions is because their standard of living is soooo much lower than the US, UK, or Germany. Right? How likely to you think it is for a family of 4 to have 4 relatively new cars in China? You think everyone has AC in their homes? Maybe in the cities, but not in the countryside.