So being a young,up and coming mech designer, after years of applying for paid and unpaid internships,I finally was accepted at a fairly large company. That was about a year ago and so far all I've learned is how much every department seems to hate and blame engineering and "CYA"... Spending time on here I have seen its fairly common. Even though that was very vague, Im hoping to start a good survival thread here, maybe get some advice.
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Is it all really like this? 50
- Thread starter REVK
- Start date
REVK - some places always insist on identifying areas for improvement - so it may be a fairly minor point. Our place nominally does this (though apparently last year I was perfect and one of the few people not given a specific area to improve on).
However, if you combine this with your viewpoint given in your posts above then it could be taken as a message to 'stick to your job' and worry less about everything else outside of your control - at least if it's to the detriment of your actual job.
However, if you combine this with your viewpoint given in your posts above then it could be taken as a message to 'stick to your job' and worry less about everything else outside of your control - at least if it's to the detriment of your actual job.
Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
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6
- #22
lacajun,
To say that CYA is a part of life is possibly true, but to me, only acceptable to a point. It depends on the context. If by "CYA" it means making sure that your nose is clean and that you always have enough evidence (memos, emails and such) that, if poop ever hit the fan you could hold it up to people and say, "See? It wasn't my fault. My backside is covered.", then I have to say that I *hate* CYA mentality and I refuse to be in that mode. On the other hand, if by "CYA" it means just making sure that the work you do reflects an honest, good effort so that you can point to it and say, "See? I am proud of this work.", then I am all for CYA.
But, I never was especially politically astute, and relative to my age, I have (through my own conscious doing) done a profoundly good job of climbing *down* the corporate ladder. Others my age are now VPs, managers ... MBAs ... driving around in BMWs, Mercedes, living in 4000 square foot homes in the winter and private condos in Mexico on their vacation. Me, I am still just an engineer who lives in a small house on a hobby farm with a couple of horses and a plethora of dogs, driving a pick-up truck.
Sometimes I think I should have done more CYA and less of whatever it is I have spent my life doing. Some days I feel like I have become nothing more than a mere soap tablet in the urinal of engineering.
Those are the days I drink beer and think, it might not be covered, but other people can nonetheless kiss it.
In the end, the only thing of much value is character, and my opinion is that people who are predisposed to a classic "CYA" (meant in the negative sense) mentality tend to have less of it.
To say that CYA is a part of life is possibly true, but to me, only acceptable to a point. It depends on the context. If by "CYA" it means making sure that your nose is clean and that you always have enough evidence (memos, emails and such) that, if poop ever hit the fan you could hold it up to people and say, "See? It wasn't my fault. My backside is covered.", then I have to say that I *hate* CYA mentality and I refuse to be in that mode. On the other hand, if by "CYA" it means just making sure that the work you do reflects an honest, good effort so that you can point to it and say, "See? I am proud of this work.", then I am all for CYA.
But, I never was especially politically astute, and relative to my age, I have (through my own conscious doing) done a profoundly good job of climbing *down* the corporate ladder. Others my age are now VPs, managers ... MBAs ... driving around in BMWs, Mercedes, living in 4000 square foot homes in the winter and private condos in Mexico on their vacation. Me, I am still just an engineer who lives in a small house on a hobby farm with a couple of horses and a plethora of dogs, driving a pick-up truck.
Sometimes I think I should have done more CYA and less of whatever it is I have spent my life doing. Some days I feel like I have become nothing more than a mere soap tablet in the urinal of engineering.
Those are the days I drink beer and think, it might not be covered, but other people can nonetheless kiss it.
In the end, the only thing of much value is character, and my opinion is that people who are predisposed to a classic "CYA" (meant in the negative sense) mentality tend to have less of it.
tienti
Mechanical
- May 1, 2012
- 27
I've worked at 2 small companies, and both have treated me very well. The only factors that is bad about the small companies is funding and knowledge base. Politics is alot better, and I've gotten along with everybody really well. And everybody is like family around here. Larger companies though will give you better image, more money, and better support system (like expensive software/CAD programs)
Either way, any job will teach you something engineering related or not
Either way, any job will teach you something engineering related or not
- Thread starter
- #24
tienti, i seriously doubt you make less than me! lol, possibly the software is better.. we use autodesk inventor 2012.. but there seems to be a slight licensing issue with everyone. So its iffy! There is always something to learn i imagine. Its a foot in the door, thats all i can say...
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1
- #25
Totally agree with snorgy about CYA and have had a similar career path. Yeah, sometimes I lament that I turned 50 and still sit in a cubicle. Part of it is a lack of "CYA" and part of it was just having other priorities in my life. I'm very grateful to be an engineer because an emphasis on staying technical continues to be of great value. The current economic situation notwithstanding, I do not think I would have much trouble finding a new job if I wanted to.
Concerning character there is a wonderful concept in the book "King Rat" by James Clavel. The POWs are all in starvation mode and often have to cheat and steal just to survive. But if one swears on his name he can usually be trusted because "if you don't have your name you truly have nothing".
Concerning character there is a wonderful concept in the book "King Rat" by James Clavel. The POWs are all in starvation mode and often have to cheat and steal just to survive. But if one swears on his name he can usually be trusted because "if you don't have your name you truly have nothing".
Small company, large company, aren't you for getting there is also goverment work. At the local level it isen't that bad, and they also provide good tools to work with. Sort of like a small company feeling, yet money enough to get things done.
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- #27
OK. Started in engineering 35 years ago. Worked for large and small, even ran a one-man operation for 10 years. Manufacturing and consulting. Equipment design and product design. A few bottom lines:
1. Stop thinking like an employee. Start thinking like a business man. Your managers and the folks that use your work product are your CUSTOMERS. It is up to you to give them what they want, even when they can't tell you clearly what it is, even when they change schedules and requirements on you, even when they blame you for their mistakes, even when your providers don't do their job. Simply - accept no excuses from yourself.
2. When someone comes to you with a problem that isn't your responsibility, don't blow them off. Do SOMETHING that moves them closer to a solution.
3. Don't make promises you can't keep, no matter how much they press you. But move heaven and earth to keep any promises you have made.
4. Don't make the mistake of thinking that your education is over. I am here to tell you it has JUST BEGUN! Learn something every day. The struggles you are going through now are simply the tuition for the school of life.
5. You can learn more from a bad experience or a bad example than you can from a good one.
6. The guys without an education that have been doing this for years are your most valuable resource. They may not be able to express themselves in engineering terms, but they know what works and what doesn't. Always show them that you respect them deeply and value their advice.
7. Don't be afraid to ask for help. People take that as a compliment. Don't ask them to do your work. Just ask for their opinions and ideas.
8. If you keep these attitudes eventually your reputation will become known, and you will become the go-to guy. You will be their first option. You are in the real world now, and it truly is up to you. You can't set the rules, but you can learn to thrive within them.
1. Stop thinking like an employee. Start thinking like a business man. Your managers and the folks that use your work product are your CUSTOMERS. It is up to you to give them what they want, even when they can't tell you clearly what it is, even when they change schedules and requirements on you, even when they blame you for their mistakes, even when your providers don't do their job. Simply - accept no excuses from yourself.
2. When someone comes to you with a problem that isn't your responsibility, don't blow them off. Do SOMETHING that moves them closer to a solution.
3. Don't make promises you can't keep, no matter how much they press you. But move heaven and earth to keep any promises you have made.
4. Don't make the mistake of thinking that your education is over. I am here to tell you it has JUST BEGUN! Learn something every day. The struggles you are going through now are simply the tuition for the school of life.
5. You can learn more from a bad experience or a bad example than you can from a good one.
6. The guys without an education that have been doing this for years are your most valuable resource. They may not be able to express themselves in engineering terms, but they know what works and what doesn't. Always show them that you respect them deeply and value their advice.
7. Don't be afraid to ask for help. People take that as a compliment. Don't ask them to do your work. Just ask for their opinions and ideas.
8. If you keep these attitudes eventually your reputation will become known, and you will become the go-to guy. You will be their first option. You are in the real world now, and it truly is up to you. You can't set the rules, but you can learn to thrive within them.
It's a little concerning that many seem to be regarding as 'small businesses' and 'big businesses' as homogeneous groups without question.
This is not remotely the case so trying to form anything more than vague generalizations is impossible.
Some big businesses actually act like a collection of small businesses - or at least some sites or departments can have the 'small business feel'.
On the other hand some small businesses can have the issues often associated with large ones.
This is not remotely the case so trying to form anything more than vague generalizations is impossible.
Some big businesses actually act like a collection of small businesses - or at least some sites or departments can have the 'small business feel'.
On the other hand some small businesses can have the issues often associated with large ones.
Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
patprimmer
New member
I fully concur with all that JBoggs says.
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
for site rules
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
for site rules
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1
- #31
You can also learn by losing arguments. Some of my main and I might even say most important strengths are based on what I learned after getting beat bloody while losing an arguement. Don't be afraid to argue your point, but don't be afraid to admit that you were wrong when you are, and we all are from time to time.
Sign me "lost but won".
rmw
Sign me "lost but won".
rmw
Cranky may have neglected to use a smiley.
I am waiting (in the UK) to see the much trailed episode of The Big Bang in which Stephen Hawkins appears and finds a mistake in Shelley's math..... about the only time he is forced, reluctantly, to agree he may have made a mistake ..... as if it is the one and only time he has made a mistake. (if he will only admit a mistake to Stephen Hawkins, the fact of the mistake possibly means he has made other mistakes but never admitted of the possibility before now.....)
JMW
I am waiting (in the UK) to see the much trailed episode of The Big Bang in which Stephen Hawkins appears and finds a mistake in Shelley's math..... about the only time he is forced, reluctantly, to agree he may have made a mistake ..... as if it is the one and only time he has made a mistake. (if he will only admit a mistake to Stephen Hawkins, the fact of the mistake possibly means he has made other mistakes but never admitted of the possibility before now.....)
JMW
I actually don't have a problem admitting when I am wrong.
People who want to prove you wrong have agendas. People who remind you that you may have forgotten something, don't.
So never admitting you are wrong, but that you need to make an adjustment is much perfered.
I'm a simple man, I really don't want to learn how to do smileys.
People really should learn to understand sarcasim.
People who want to prove you wrong have agendas. People who remind you that you may have forgotten something, don't.
So never admitting you are wrong, but that you need to make an adjustment is much perfered.
I'm a simple man, I really don't want to learn how to do smileys.
People really should learn to understand sarcasim.
patprimmer
New member
Cranky. I think you are wrong with that.
![[wink]](/data/assets/smilies/wink.gif "[wink] [wink]")
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
for site rules
- Thread starter
- #37
well, i can't complain to my co workers or have a chip on my shoulder any more. I've been working full time for 7 months. I have averaged 43 hours a week. So our new HR had been asking me questions about what hours I want to commit to working (we had been "flex time"). So i went ahead and asked for health insurance. Well two weeks later i got my answer... PT 30 hours a week, got shafted hard on that. what is protocol without losing my job until i find another? Im doing everything i can to show that i need the time to work. I can't get done what i need to do in 40 hours let alone 30. I'm slowing down how i work. What should i do?
GregLocock
Automotive
You go to your boss and point out that with the workload you currently have and the deadlines you are facing 30 h/wk is not going to get the job done.
Looks to me like there's a column of smoke where the river meets the road there, I must admit. And I don't mean that somebody's Ford went up in flames.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
Looks to me like there's a column of smoke where the river meets the road there, I must admit. And I don't mean that somebody's Ford went up in flames.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
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1
- #39
REVK, continue doing your job and use your free time to look for another one.
SNORGY, you are most correct about CYA. In my book, there is no excuse for CYA to cover mistakes and/or blame someone else. That's the only CYA I have seen. I ultimately began keeping documentation to protect myself from some pretty darned evil people trying to get me in trouble up to and including being fired. Doing a good job is not CYA but fulfilling requirements and doing so in a way that is honorable. I definitely believe in doing a good job with integrity. If I mess up, I mess up. However, that is not Corporate culture and hasn't been throughout my career.
Early in my career I took responsibility for a problem I didn't cause and was in no way related to. It happened prior to my first job as an engineer. The meeting bogged down with people trying to find someone to blame and blaming each other. The project had been given to me to fix the problem and it was my meeting. When I recognized what was going on, I quickly decided to accept responsibility so the blame could squarely be placed on me. It had the desired effect and the meeting moved forward and we found a solution.
Corporate culture is: Do not admit to making a mistake nor say that anyone else has made a mistake. It fosters a lot of evil from lying to shirking responsibilities. I've heard pastors say lying is the biggest problem we have in the USA today. I agree because of my experiences with people. I think that's why we are in the economic quagmire of the last few years. The chickens have come home to roost.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
SNORGY, you are most correct about CYA. In my book, there is no excuse for CYA to cover mistakes and/or blame someone else. That's the only CYA I have seen. I ultimately began keeping documentation to protect myself from some pretty darned evil people trying to get me in trouble up to and including being fired. Doing a good job is not CYA but fulfilling requirements and doing so in a way that is honorable. I definitely believe in doing a good job with integrity. If I mess up, I mess up. However, that is not Corporate culture and hasn't been throughout my career.
Early in my career I took responsibility for a problem I didn't cause and was in no way related to. It happened prior to my first job as an engineer. The meeting bogged down with people trying to find someone to blame and blaming each other. The project had been given to me to fix the problem and it was my meeting. When I recognized what was going on, I quickly decided to accept responsibility so the blame could squarely be placed on me. It had the desired effect and the meeting moved forward and we found a solution.
Corporate culture is: Do not admit to making a mistake nor say that anyone else has made a mistake. It fosters a lot of evil from lying to shirking responsibilities. I've heard pastors say lying is the biggest problem we have in the USA today. I agree because of my experiences with people. I think that's why we are in the economic quagmire of the last few years. The chickens have come home to roost.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
What hours did you ask to work before bringing up the health insurance part? I remember at one of my jobs I mentioned I liked working and ended up going for 80+ hour weeks for over 2 years. One of the partners seemed very happy signing my paycheck every 2 weeks. Maybe you need to make sure your work really is up to par before thinking the company is shafting you. You may also be working at a very slow pace compared to others which they would rather pay the ones outputting more.
B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer
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B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer
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