new to this forum, looking for some valuable suggestion. how do you typically deal with senior persons who are of the "ninja claw" type? i am facing problems with working with an individual who gets to make the calls in projects (by virtue of position), and whenever i come up with better method/mode to do things faster/better, i get completely cut off from that project right after! its almost like i tried to push this person out of his comfort zone and made his insecured, and so being cut off is my punishment. this person expects me to do his "dirty" work at all times, and tries to keep me at bay from all design/engineering work. i would appreciate if someone can offer some suggestion.
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how to tackle this type 26
- Thread starter ac1980
- Start date
ColonelSanders83
Mechanical
I do believe Pat's last post in absolutly on the money.
I would give 2 stars for that one if I could.
A question properly stated is a problem half solved.
Always remember, free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it!
I would give 2 stars for that one if I could.
A question properly stated is a problem half solved.
Always remember, free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it!
I think this thread has turned too much into personal attacks instead of trying to help a fellow engineer. I acknowledge that the OP had a lot of frustration with his boss, which was evident in his postings. Additionally, his poor use of the <Shift> key didn't help his case.
Unfortunately, instead of trying to help the OP with his ETHICAL question, he was attacked in this forum. Many of the people posting here never did address the ethical problem that the OP presented in his 2nd post. In most cases, the posts were saying "You're a young engineer who seems to think you know everything. If your boss tells you to do something, do it without question." I may be wrong, but that is the feeling I got when reading the posts.
In my 20 year of engineering, with my PE; I've had experiences with older engineers that treat younger engineers like dirt. They (the older engineers) would feel that anything they stamped shouldn't be questioned even if it was the responsibility of another engineer to review his work. When the older engineer had calculatons without forumlae, units of measure, or references for varables used; it was difficult to review the work. When questioned respectfully, the older engineer stated, "I don't have time to teach you engineering!"
Just because an engineer is older, doesn't make his work correct or him right. Nor does it mean that just because an engineer is young, he's wrong. I think that all parties need to stop "venting" and take the time to provide respectful answers.
Please think how you would have answered the following post:
"I'm new to this forum and have a problem. My boss is reassigning projects I'm assigned after I start asking questions about a project. I will do the work that is originally asked, but doing independent reasearch I find out that the design may not be up to the appropriate regulations. After e-mailing my boss about the issues, I never hear back from him directly. Later, I overhear a telephone conversation indicating another engineer has been assigned my project. What should I do?"
That was a simplfied version of Example 1 the OP submitted in his 2nd post.
Unfortunately, instead of trying to help the OP with his ETHICAL question, he was attacked in this forum. Many of the people posting here never did address the ethical problem that the OP presented in his 2nd post. In most cases, the posts were saying "You're a young engineer who seems to think you know everything. If your boss tells you to do something, do it without question." I may be wrong, but that is the feeling I got when reading the posts.
In my 20 year of engineering, with my PE; I've had experiences with older engineers that treat younger engineers like dirt. They (the older engineers) would feel that anything they stamped shouldn't be questioned even if it was the responsibility of another engineer to review his work. When the older engineer had calculatons without forumlae, units of measure, or references for varables used; it was difficult to review the work. When questioned respectfully, the older engineer stated, "I don't have time to teach you engineering!"
Just because an engineer is older, doesn't make his work correct or him right. Nor does it mean that just because an engineer is young, he's wrong. I think that all parties need to stop "venting" and take the time to provide respectful answers.
Please think how you would have answered the following post:
"I'm new to this forum and have a problem. My boss is reassigning projects I'm assigned after I start asking questions about a project. I will do the work that is originally asked, but doing independent reasearch I find out that the design may not be up to the appropriate regulations. After e-mailing my boss about the issues, I never hear back from him directly. Later, I overhear a telephone conversation indicating another engineer has been assigned my project. What should I do?"
That was a simplfied version of Example 1 the OP submitted in his 2nd post.
Tough crowd......
If a senior engineer cannot discuss the relevant issues and the reasons for removing a junior engineer from a project or task and "on the sly" assigns tasks to other engineers, I personally find that hard to respect. It is cowardly. The senior engineer has the power and the responsibility to mentor young engineers. For those two reasons, he is a coward for shirking his responsibility. He has all the power and cannot discuss the reasons for his actions with a young engineer? Has "he" matured yet?
I don't care how "old" one gets there is always room for maturation. Some never mature despite advancing years.
I learned at the graduate level that some engineers do believe the best thing you can do for an employee is to tell them the truth, good and bad, about them. If you cannot utilize that kind of honesty, you deserve the performance you get from your subordinates. They have to be given a choice. Often, we are completely ignorant of our own problems as human beings. It often takes others to inform us of just how much something irritates, annoys, or is flat out wrong. If you don't tell them the truth, you do not present them with a choice.
I had a similar situation as this young kid many years ago. I watched all the men get the gravy projects. I had been asking for one for the experience and to learn. As the next one approached, I sat across my boss's desk and informed him, after a brief conversation, he would have trouble, if I did not get the next one. I got the next one. He didn't trust me enough to do it alone and assigned one of the other men to do it with me. I was infuriated because this man had less experience than me but I accepted his terms. Unfortunately, he left the company. I had the project alone. It was the most successful of its kind in the plant.
The generation gap is obvious here. I'd say there is some age discrimination against this young engineer for his initial presentation with "syntax." Good grief people! Be glad we have young people willing to engage with us old farts. Heck, he was seeking your wisdom not your bitterness.
If a senior engineer cannot discuss the relevant issues and the reasons for removing a junior engineer from a project or task and "on the sly" assigns tasks to other engineers, I personally find that hard to respect. It is cowardly. The senior engineer has the power and the responsibility to mentor young engineers. For those two reasons, he is a coward for shirking his responsibility. He has all the power and cannot discuss the reasons for his actions with a young engineer? Has "he" matured yet?
I don't care how "old" one gets there is always room for maturation. Some never mature despite advancing years.
I learned at the graduate level that some engineers do believe the best thing you can do for an employee is to tell them the truth, good and bad, about them. If you cannot utilize that kind of honesty, you deserve the performance you get from your subordinates. They have to be given a choice. Often, we are completely ignorant of our own problems as human beings. It often takes others to inform us of just how much something irritates, annoys, or is flat out wrong. If you don't tell them the truth, you do not present them with a choice.
I had a similar situation as this young kid many years ago. I watched all the men get the gravy projects. I had been asking for one for the experience and to learn. As the next one approached, I sat across my boss's desk and informed him, after a brief conversation, he would have trouble, if I did not get the next one. I got the next one. He didn't trust me enough to do it alone and assigned one of the other men to do it with me. I was infuriated because this man had less experience than me but I accepted his terms. Unfortunately, he left the company. I had the project alone. It was the most successful of its kind in the plant.
The generation gap is obvious here. I'd say there is some age discrimination against this young engineer for his initial presentation with "syntax." Good grief people! Be glad we have young people willing to engage with us old farts. Heck, he was seeking your wisdom not your bitterness.
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1
- #44
"how do you typically deal with senior persons who are of the "ninja claw" type"
We have heard only this one side of what appears to be a lop-sided story. The fact that "senior" is inserted is a sign; "ninja claws" affect people of all ages.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
We have heard only this one side of what appears to be a lop-sided story. The fact that "senior" is inserted is a sign; "ninja claws" affect people of all ages.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
patprimmer
New member
Thank you IR
That is the most pertinent point. How can you mentor someone like that.It takes two and BOTH have to talk and both have to listen at appropriate times.
The story we have seen here in my opinion is extremely prejudice and one sided, hence my stance. I simply do not believe much of what was posted by the OP.
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
for site rules
That is the most pertinent point. How can you mentor someone like that.It takes two and BOTH have to talk and both have to listen at appropriate times.
The story we have seen here in my opinion is extremely prejudice and one sided, hence my stance. I simply do not believe much of what was posted by the OP.
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
for site rules
On the other hand, any one who can so effectively draw out the worst in the members here simply by the nature of the initial posts, may well be very capable of alienating a senior engineer in person.
But having said that I'm concious of the points raised by the more tolerant members here that some of us may have been unduly harsh and unsympathetic and failed to make allowances, failed to address the fundamental request for help.
When taking a critical look at the way the "senior" is not mentoring ac1980 nor explaining why suggestions are rejected there is a great deal of truth in this and the potential that this is a case where the senior is seriously at fault.
Now, we have been invited in on this when the problem is at full fever pitch. We have a description of teh situation as it exists now.
It would be nice to know if the senior's behaviour was the same at the very outset or not.
So ac1980, on the very first project when you put forward a suggestion as to how to do it better, did the senior ignore you, take you off the project etc. or did he at that time offer some discussion of why he wanted it done a particular way and why he didn't think your solution so good or sufficient to justify a change?
Is it the case that in the early days he tried and has since given up? or was he always a Ninja clawed senior?
JMW
But having said that I'm concious of the points raised by the more tolerant members here that some of us may have been unduly harsh and unsympathetic and failed to make allowances, failed to address the fundamental request for help.
When taking a critical look at the way the "senior" is not mentoring ac1980 nor explaining why suggestions are rejected there is a great deal of truth in this and the potential that this is a case where the senior is seriously at fault.
Now, we have been invited in on this when the problem is at full fever pitch. We have a description of teh situation as it exists now.
It would be nice to know if the senior's behaviour was the same at the very outset or not.
So ac1980, on the very first project when you put forward a suggestion as to how to do it better, did the senior ignore you, take you off the project etc. or did he at that time offer some discussion of why he wanted it done a particular way and why he didn't think your solution so good or sufficient to justify a change?
Is it the case that in the early days he tried and has since given up? or was he always a Ninja clawed senior?
JMW
AC1980,
As we only have limited views as to what the situation is/was posters on this board had to try and read into not only the details of your post (Boss continually dismisses me from projects when I raise questions) but the formatting and presentaton (ninja claws, this type, punctuation, etc.). I would agree that I was surprised at how harsh some critisism was (think mine was successful at providing a balanced view with constructive critisism) but they all still provided you with some relative value; even if only insite on how others process information. It would be unwise to just blatantly dismiss and assume that "oh they're just like my boss".
Either way if I were you I would still be keeping an eye on future job postings becuase working for a shite boss that's temporarly better is still working for a shite boss.
Best of luck and thanks for a quality quote that should be a warning to all people on all forums "it was my almost a year-long frustration and a few drinks of bourbon pouring out on to the computer keyboard that night." Whiskey breaks my shift key too
As we only have limited views as to what the situation is/was posters on this board had to try and read into not only the details of your post (Boss continually dismisses me from projects when I raise questions) but the formatting and presentaton (ninja claws, this type, punctuation, etc.). I would agree that I was surprised at how harsh some critisism was (think mine was successful at providing a balanced view with constructive critisism) but they all still provided you with some relative value; even if only insite on how others process information. It would be unwise to just blatantly dismiss and assume that "oh they're just like my boss".
Either way if I were you I would still be keeping an eye on future job postings becuase working for a shite boss that's temporarly better is still working for a shite boss.
Best of luck and thanks for a quality quote that should be a warning to all people on all forums "it was my almost a year-long frustration and a few drinks of bourbon pouring out on to the computer keyboard that night." Whiskey breaks my shift key too
![[wink]](/data/assets/smilies/wink.gif "[wink] [wink]")
![[lightsaber]](/data/assets/smilies/lightsaber.gif "[lightsaber] [lightsaber]")
Patgeotech
Geotechnical
- Jan 20, 2003
- 72
Well, I am also responding a bit late into this one (but had to after reading some of the comments above).
I must agree with MacGyyver and a few others, the tone was a bit harsh by certain members of this forum (and they cannot see the tone of their threads and the impact it may have on younger forum members). I think a lot of senior engineers forget that we were once in these same graduate positions and we can all remember that certain "senior guy" that gave us a hard time. The lessons learned were often very good ones, but it is clear to me that ac1980's senior did not take the time to explain the project to him and ignored his questions - not a very good example to a younger team member! I guess that if the senior had taken the time to explain the project aspects to ac1980, then this thread would probably not existed.
I guess that ac1980 has learnt some good lessons from this forum and hopefully he remembers this when he has a graduate engineer in his project group some day. The comments on this forum can only make you a better person ac1980.
I must agree with MacGyyver and a few others, the tone was a bit harsh by certain members of this forum (and they cannot see the tone of their threads and the impact it may have on younger forum members). I think a lot of senior engineers forget that we were once in these same graduate positions and we can all remember that certain "senior guy" that gave us a hard time. The lessons learned were often very good ones, but it is clear to me that ac1980's senior did not take the time to explain the project to him and ignored his questions - not a very good example to a younger team member! I guess that if the senior had taken the time to explain the project aspects to ac1980, then this thread would probably not existed.
I guess that ac1980 has learnt some good lessons from this forum and hopefully he remembers this when he has a graduate engineer in his project group some day. The comments on this forum can only make you a better person ac1980.
"ac1980's senior did not take the time to explain the project to him and ignored his questions "
Again, we're only reading one side of the story. The brain's prefrontal cortex doesn't fully mature until age 25. While my 17-yo is obviously far from that point, he certainly has a very selective memory. Things that other students obviously heard and remembered from class and announcements are total unknown news to him. Things I tell him, he has no recollection of.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
Again, we're only reading one side of the story. The brain's prefrontal cortex doesn't fully mature until age 25. While my 17-yo is obviously far from that point, he certainly has a very selective memory. Things that other students obviously heard and remembered from class and announcements are total unknown news to him. Things I tell him, he has no recollection of.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
If a parent speaks, and there is only a teen there to listen, did anything really get said?
Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
Sure, but it just sounds like the wawh-wawh-wawhs that Charlie Brown and company hear from adults...
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
MacGyverS2000
Electrical
I'm weaning that no-listen behavior out of the 8-yo... more and more often she had been asking a question, but instead of listening to the answer, her mind was wandering off and paying attention to something else (TV, bug on the wall, etc.). It became too easy for her to simply ask again.
Now if she asks a question I answer it once. If/when she comes back with the same question 10 seconds later, I ask if she listened to my answer. If she says 'no', I tell her she should pay better attention, and I do not repeat my answer. She quickly learned 'no' didn't get the repeated response she was after, so she tried 'yes'... which prompted me to ask what part of my answer she didn't understand. She is quickly learning to pay closer attention after she asks a question.
Had I continued to repeat my answer, it would have been my fault for enabling that kind of behavior. But I made sure she understood why I would not repeat my answer.
Dan - Owner
Now if she asks a question I answer it once. If/when she comes back with the same question 10 seconds later, I ask if she listened to my answer. If she says 'no', I tell her she should pay better attention, and I do not repeat my answer. She quickly learned 'no' didn't get the repeated response she was after, so she tried 'yes'... which prompted me to ask what part of my answer she didn't understand. She is quickly learning to pay closer attention after she asks a question.
Had I continued to repeat my answer, it would have been my fault for enabling that kind of behavior. But I made sure she understood why I would not repeat my answer.
Dan - Owner
SiliconeAurora
Materials
I still have no idea what the hay "ninja claw" even means in this context.
MikeHalloran
Mechanical
Ninja claw:
.. or 'shuko' for short.
As I understand it, they were primarily used for silently climbing trees or (wooden) walls, making them a tool.
With a great deal of skill and practice, they could be used to trap someone else's sword, essentially by holding the heels of the hands together with the fingers outstretched and somewhat protected by the steel bands or claws on the inner face of the hands. ... making them a defensive weapon, and perhaps a source of ninja mystique.
With less skill, they could be used in the same way a cat uses its claws to scratch a person. Only in this context does the OP's phrasing make any sense.
... and it's clearly intended as a pejorative.
So let's have no more of this PC crap about the response being harsh.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
.. or 'shuko' for short.
As I understand it, they were primarily used for silently climbing trees or (wooden) walls, making them a tool.
With a great deal of skill and practice, they could be used to trap someone else's sword, essentially by holding the heels of the hands together with the fingers outstretched and somewhat protected by the steel bands or claws on the inner face of the hands. ... making them a defensive weapon, and perhaps a source of ninja mystique.
With less skill, they could be used in the same way a cat uses its claws to scratch a person. Only in this context does the OP's phrasing make any sense.
... and it's clearly intended as a pejorative.
So let's have no more of this PC crap about the response being harsh.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
patprimmer
New member
Dan
Well now she will have been taught better than to ignore you.
What you have taught her is exactly what I suspect the OPs parents never taught him. I know it's a guess, but with only one very obviously heavily weighted side of a story, all we can do is guess what might be the real middle ground.
The OP has the right to question AND listen to replys. He has not yet earned the right to ignore or worse still, actively undermine.
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
for site rules
Well now she will have been taught better than to ignore you.
What you have taught her is exactly what I suspect the OPs parents never taught him. I know it's a guess, but with only one very obviously heavily weighted side of a story, all we can do is guess what might be the real middle ground.
The OP has the right to question AND listen to replys. He has not yet earned the right to ignore or worse still, actively undermine.
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
for site rules
We could rename this thread, Much ado about nothing?
There is a young engineer here. One day about 5 years ago he walked into my cube, very excited to present one of his "original" ideas.
He though it would be great if the US military formed a scientific research group to try to figure out how to defeat IEDs.
It never got any better after that either.
For a couple years now, he does more talking than work.
Usually about a home hobby project for getting rich; an in-dash system that allows automobile drivers to surf the web while they drive.
I remain on the sidelines in amazement.
There is a young engineer here. One day about 5 years ago he walked into my cube, very excited to present one of his "original" ideas.
He though it would be great if the US military formed a scientific research group to try to figure out how to defeat IEDs.
It never got any better after that either.
For a couple years now, he does more talking than work.
Usually about a home hobby project for getting rich; an in-dash system that allows automobile drivers to surf the web while they drive.
I remain on the sidelines in amazement.
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