How to deal with this ? 1

[strucguy]

I am a structural engineer and we work with architects on various building projects (commercial, institutional and residential). Trying to catch up will all the changes architects make in the last minute and having to deal with change orders from the steel sub in the aftermath has become a real nightmare for us. Every time we send drawings out for bid, we know our drawings are not up to speed because of the last minute changes by the architect. Just to meet the deadlines we release the drawings out anyway hoping we could address the same in a separate addendum. Changes in these addendums vary from slab edge dimensions, girt and steel elevations and some misc dimensions. But, every time we issue an addendum we get slapped with this crazy change order from the contractor, even when the shop drawing distribution hasn't begun. I understand that the contractor needs some time to address these changes, but it is very unreasonable to charge thousands of dollars just to address minor slab edge dimensions and steel elevations that in way have any impact on the length of the steel members. I am not sure how to address this issue without playing hardball with the architect and at the same time not being a j@%k to the contractor (that's what they think of us every time we reject their change order).

 

[PEDARRIN2]

It is a trend I have seen as well.

It used to be (from the more experienced engineers) that architects did not make last minute changes (or last minute was still two weeks before the construction documents go out). That was when drafting was mechanically done, not electronically, so it took a lot longer to make changes.

It also used to be that the consultants would not accept any scope changes after a certain period of time before construction documents went out. Any such changes happened by addendum and all changes to be included in the adddendum were to be distributed by a certain date so everybody had time to adjust.

But that is not the way it seems to be happening anymore.

 

[MikeHalloran]

The contractor is absolutely right to demand money for integrating a given project into his overall planning more than once.

You should in turn demand the same of the architect.

If you can't play hardball with the architect, rent someone who can.

Otherwise, just give the architect your checkbook.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[hokie66]

I know that practice varies with different countries, but one way of avoiding all these dimensional change problems is to not dimension so much. In Australia, structural engineers tend to not give dimensions like you described, rather leaving this to the architect. Then, if he changes, he pays.

 

[strucguy]

PEDARRIN2 and MikeHalloran

Thank you for your valuable input. I wish I could play hardball with Architects on this issue. But, they are our clients and we can only do so much. But, we are making sure they are aware of all the trouble they are causing to us with last minute changes. For now we are just playing nice and hoping for better days. Also, it is never our intention to have the contractor eat the additional charges arising due to changes made by design team. But at the same the contractor needs to be reasonable, because there will be times when they want to deviate from what's shown in contract documents. Should we say no to all those requests, because they have agreed to the contract. A certain level of give and take is expected from all the players for the successful completion of a project.

hokie66
I am a huge proponent of the approach you suggested. The architect is already showing the gridline and other miscellaneous dimensions. So, what's the point in us repeating the same info again on structural drawings. But, our management have a different take on this. So, doing what the boss wants me to do.

 

[msquared48]

This doesn't happen to be a design-build project, does it?

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

 

[strucguy]

msquared48 -

It's not a design-build project. just good old design-bid-build, where the bid part was expedited before all the design issues could be resolved just to speed things up.

 

[berkshire]

just good old design-bid-build, where the bid part was expedited before all the design issues could be resolved just to speed things up.
I have known several contractors in situations like this who will low ball a bid, knowing they can make a bigger profit on the change orders.
B.E.

 

[msquared48]

Yep...

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

 

[msquared48]

With this many changes, the ASrchitect is not doing his job very well, or the owner is very fickle. Seen a lot of that too.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

 

[IRstuff]

Sounds like your contracts are leaking like sieves. You need to tighten up your contracts.

TTFN
faq731-376

 

[rowingengineer]

If someone puts a change order in to me the first thing I ask for is documentation to show the additional charges and how they are substantiated. If I get back a breakdown showing charge out rates above standard or outside the likely time frames, I reject the additional charges as being excessive. I have defined in my contact what is considered excessive and other such items. I think you need to hire a "Jerk", a person that looks after you and you only.

If you haven't got your docs in order, then re-write the contract to allow for minor changes, so that the contractor wears the cost. Spend teh money on a lawyer and get eth contract water tight.

http://www.nceng.com.au/

"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."

 

[DRWeig]

Simple: Find a niche job in your area of expertise in which you don't have to work with architects. I've managed to wiggle my way into a field in which I occasionally am prime and hire an architect as my sub. After many years in the bid-spec-give-your-money-to-the-architect, I'm having FUN FUN FUN!!!

Best to you,

Goober Dave

Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies

 

[Forensic74]

"Just to meet the deadlines we release the drawings out anyway hoping we could address the same in a separate addendum."

I'm not surprised that you're getting hit with change orders. You're wasting the contractors time by issuing incomplete drawings.

Who is steering your ship? This is an age old problem. The big boss should be handling this, if they're not, I'd start looking for employment somewhere else because your company is going to be bleeding money.

 

[SteelPE]

Reminds me of a picture of a couple of boats I once saw:

http://www.treehugger.com/sustainab...re-of-the-day-shouldve-been-a-contractor.html

Look at both names carefully.

In all fairness, you are just inviting the contractor to slap you around. Any mistake they make in the original bid will be buried into the change order. If the change order is small they will still find a way to hide some money in there.

 

[kipfoot]

It's been my experience that the last addendum goes out with a week or so to go before bids are due. Changes after a bid has been accepted are subject to negotiation between the contractor and owner.

If you're still tweaking slab edges or steel elevations it shouldn't matter to the cost, in my opinion. When you add framing, change sizes, etc. then clear communication is the key and the builder deserves a proportionate extra. With any good builder, there's some back and forth and minor things are usually absorbed in the name of teamwork.

On the other hand, I don't get too upset if a contractor proposes a change that might be more efficient for him (or her, but it's always been him) if it doesn't affect the integrity of the project and the owner's in the loop. I generally include some time for these things in my proposals.

And in an ideal world, I'd try to be wrapped up early enough to leave time before a deadline for architect's deadline day changes.

 

[ztengguy]

Its a slippery slope, but sometimes you have to loose a few clients like that, and just pick up one good one. Eventually the architect will go out of businesses or not be able to get good engineers to work for them.

I work for my company till they stop paying me. If its your boss or management that takes care of this, let them take care of it, and when they stop paying you, then you dont work for them anymore.