How do I get around getting components from non QS/ISO suppliers? 7

[DJKeng]

We are an OEM supplier.

We have a non-critical; (non saftey, not class A) that i've only been able to find supplied by non-QS/ISO suppliers. How can I get this component into use in my company? We could have injection dies built for production, but our time is now very limited and I really want to use the part.

Please give me a website or your own experience where I can get real answers for this problem.

thanks all,

 

[patprimmer]

Would buying indirectly through an accredited middle man solve your problem.

If the middle man is a current, accredited, good supplier, he might do it at a small margin

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Regards
pat

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[IRstuff]

ISO does not prevent you from using non-ISO suppliers.

The only issue is how YOUR policies and procedures ensure that quality is maintained.

TTFN

 

[DJKeng]

Ok. I looked at your original post again. I see what you're saying, but a "middleman" who's QS or ISO will need to be able to grant the same deviation as we would need to. They would experience the same problem.

However, maybe they've face this situation before w/ other customers and have a streamlined approach.

 

[CanEngJohn]

As long as you can demonstrate that the component cannot be found elsewhere and you perform some form of incoming inspection on the part to verify its critical aspects there should not be a problem.

One key issue with QS and ISO which people constantly deal with is that they feel it is the written law. However this is your system implemented to benefit you. If you encounter a situation wich is being made difficult by your system then "break the rules". Then document what was done and why and what process you took to overcome the issues which the "law" is supposed to protect you from. As long as the approach is reasonable there should not be an issue.

If your QS representatives are still on your case then take it to higher authority. If it is important enough the politics should go away in a hurry.

(ie. Well I can get it from this supplier who is certified in 2 days or I can get it from Joe's Hardware in 2 hours. So how long do you want this equipment down for?)

 

[IRstuff]

Again, bear in mind that ISO does not mandate any specific organizational behavior, procedure or policy. What ISO mandates is that YOU FOLLOW YOUR OWN WRITTEN AND DOCUMENTED PROCEDURES.

Therefore, so long as you have a documented procedure for quality assurance that YOU FOLLOW, it does not matter who the supplier is.

I've gone through a number of ISO audits and the same thing always comes up: "Where are your procedures and how do you keep them up-to-date and available for all users?"

TTFN

 

[rd400guy]

I'm imagining the QS side of it is probably more of a problem than the ISO side of it? We're QS/ISO certified, but QS drives everything. I know we have to purchase from vendors on the "Approved Vendor List", which can be a pain in the a$$ sometimes.

My suggestion is that you get the part you need and "run a trial" in an attempt to "qualify" the vendor for the approved list. The vendor doesn't have to be QS/ISO certified. But, the vendor should be able to demonstrate reasonable quality assurance, especially if as an engineer you researched it and found that their part is the best for the application. Of course, all of this can be taken care of after you get the part you need NOW and put it in service. Just be sure you document everything and the auditors shouldn't have a problem with it.

Better yet: buy the part from them, use it while you design the injection dies and get them running, then put in a Cost Reduction to produce the part in-house!

 

[patprimmer]

If DJKeng works for a large auto manufacturer, which I GUESS he does, their QA system might be written and maintained by accademics without to much exposure to production and comercial realities.

Sometimes this creates problems as he has stated. Often an outside supplier might be owner managed, and thus more likely to be more flexible when it comes to writing QC procedures to match the real world. Hence my original recomendation.

Like IRstff, I have been involved with a few ISO accredited QA systems. They are very individual and one cannot pressume, that just because your system prohibits something, that other systems do likewise.

Find a way to get the performance and value you need, then find a wat to obtain with approval.

Possibilities (many already covered above)are:-
1) Source indirectly through accredited supplier with more flexible sysyem.
2) Write a procedure within you system to buy direct and do your own QC.
3) Reverse engineer and produce your own parts in house.
4) Reverse engineer and have an approved supplier manufacture for you.

Method 1 will be the quickest and dirtiest answer.

Method 2 will be very dependant on the workings within your own company structure, and may get very political in a large organisation.

Methods 3 and 4 you ruled out in the few details you provided in your original question.

Method 5 for what it's worth, play nice, encourage both conservative and radical comment, asses all the information, select what is appropriate to your circumstances, thank all the participants for thewir efforts, and you might be overwhelemed by the help that you receive.

I think a star for IRstuff is in order as a thank you for his sound and detailed advice.




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Regards
pat

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[DJKeng]

Thanks everybody.

Pat*


*
eng-tips, where rubbing bruised egos comes first.

 

[sean01]

Hi all,

Appreciate its a bit late in the conversation to be adding to it - but the answers given by Pat and IRStuff are exactly right - stars to both of you !!!

Depending on the quality system you are running there are ample opportunities for you to control such an item - for example if you are a QS 9000 supplier you can probably control them through your internal procedures for sections 4.6 (Purchasing) 4.8 Product identification and traceability or 4.13.2 - 4.13.4 Review and disposition of non conforming product and Engineering approved product authorisation.

If you can't control it in this way - I would be asking why not !!! But more constructively - write your own procedure as Pat says.

For me there have always been two important principles for any Q.M.S.

First of all SAY what you do - and then DO what you say !!!
Second - if there is any doubt about your interpretation of the rules or a potential where you could damage your customer relationship - CONSULT with the customer for their advice and see if they are agreeable to your countermeasure.

Hope you sort it out !!

sean

But

 

[CanEngJohn]

IR writes
"What ISO mandates is that YOU FOLLOW YOUR OWN WRITTEN AND DOCUMENTED PROCEDURES."

As an ISO/QS auditor I would regulary remind people that what is missing from the above statement is "AND ANY PRROCEDURE CAN BE REVISED OR AMMENDED AT ANY TIME IF WARRANTED."

The constraint I see with IR's and Pat's responses is that they are not viewing their systems as living and dynamic. They are both working within the system which is an excellent approach (and I give them both stars for their responses) but I would argue that you should be doing activities now and again that challenge your system and force it to change and meet your current needs.

If you do this correctly and document it properly chances are you have just created a new procedure which your QS team can adopt or improve upon.

 

[IRstuff]

I didn't mean to imply that documentation couldn't be changed, just simply that if you have a supplier that needs to be qualified, that you document what you do to qualify their product and all ISO requires is that you follow that documentation.

In the strictest sense, ISO does not necessarily require you to have a robust process, just that you have a process and follow it.

TTFN

 

[plasgears]

Very simply, an unqualified supplier needs to be audited regularly (annually) to satisfy your requirements. With ISO and QS this periodic qualification process is unnecessary.

 

[alanhicks]

As long as you can prove that you have audited their quality system and it has been reviewed by your Quality and Materials managers, you can use them as a supplier. The additional requirements are that you have a scheduled review of the supplier, and that they are on you ASL.

The last requrement by all of the Big 3 is that if you are the tier one, you are responsible for anything that may go wrong with the part for the life of the asembly that it is part of. This can all be found in section 4.6, page 29 of the QS 9000, third edition "Quality System Requirements " manual. You have to additionally pay attention to the Subcontractor Development paragraph, 4.6.2.1.

The requirement to use an A2LA accredited lab for your measurement certification is a lot more difficult to contend with than this.

 

[MintJulep]

IRStuff wrote:

"In the strictest sense, ISO does not necessarily require you to have a robust process, just that you have a process and follow it."

I'll go a bit further. ISO-900x "certification" does not preclude you from producing total crap. You will just have well documented crap.

 

[CanEngJohn]

As a side note.

Have you ever noticed that the big three mandate that all their suppliers must be QS9000 ceritified but hardly any of their assembly plants are QS certified?

 

[jmw]

The point about quality is that it can be assured or measured.

If the supplier is not appoved, then, as has been pointed out, the parts must be individually QA tested by you or an independent test house (or even by the supplier?).

Even if he is approved, you may still have his standards audited.

This is added cost and trouble.
Purchasing try to minimise the risks by buying only from approved suppliers. You may very well find you spend more 0on a component (even though the purchasing costs are minimised). You may also find that the quality may be assured but not necessarily as good as you can get from another supplier, quality assured or not.

JMW

http://www.viscoanalyser.com

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[GregLocock]

"Have you ever noticed that the big three mandate that all their suppliers must be QS9000 ceritified but hardly any of their assembly plants are QS certified?
"
Really?

http://www.manufacturingcenter.com/qm/archives/1299/1299auto.asp

"In addition to Q1, all Ford Motor Co. assembly plants have been ISO 9001- and ISO 14001-compliant for the past two years. According to Tetreault, the company views quality standards, particularly QS-9000, as steps in an evolution toward developing the most highly effective quality program possible."



Cheers

Greg Locock