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How bad is it in the UK? 16
- Thread starter BitTwiddler
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- #62
Well, Corus, perhaps she failed her PR training under the New Labour spin doctors and shouldn't have fallen for any such traps. The question is whether she was "off-message" as the phrase is.
But in general, the whole British Leyland debacle is an exemplar of how government policy has done the manufacturing and engineering industry no service.
Basically it would appear that various companies were allowed to rip of the good bits without any oblication to the rest of the group. MG, Jaguar, Land Rover etc all being cherry picked and the core being left to rot. BMW even took out a brand name, the "Mini".
It isn't the case that the car industry is bad in the UK, but perhaps sectors of it have suffered overly from a variety of factors. I did have an illustration of the differnces that existed when I visited the then new Nissan Plant in Sunderland.
This project was a revelation. When I was there commissioning some equipment I had designed, the conveyor never stopped. Even when the operator had a problem with one of the vehicles he didn't stop the line, he went with it to fix the problem. Tea breaks and lunch breaks were partially devoted to re-stocking the trackside supply bins.
Meanwhile, at a BL (or whatever it was called then) plant in the Midlands, I never saw the conveyor moving on any of my visits and while most used automated equipment to fill windscreen reservoirs etc here they had a pallet of windscreen wash fluid in 1/2 litre bottles.
I guess there are therefore a lot of reasons we can attribute the decline to including unions, lack of investment, protectionism (nationalisation), and, of course, bad management.
Any one of which is bad news for any company but when a company suffers the whole lot and is faced by strong competition there must come a point where no-one can save it.
Insensitive comments just rub salt in the wounds.
If the group had been kept together or reasonably so then under a good owner the problems might have been resolved but since the "owners" essentially looted it of the good bits, what was left had little chance. Perhaps that was deliberate, a competitor eliminated.
Sad, because I thought the Rover 75 an excellent car and had hoped it might prove a way forward.
Now one asks just what role government had or should have had or should not have had in all this.
Too many industries that struggled were nationalised, which kept them going, but nothing was done to modernise them, reform working practices or fit them for a future when they could survive alone. When finally privatised they were left entirely to market forces they were ill equipped to survive.
From this I conclude that neither political regime can take any credit and neither Nationalisation nor Privatisation as exclusive policies has been a success though had these policies been integrated they both might have been very beneficial.
The UK government is obsessed with the service sector yet when we look at this sector we find only lip service paid to it and a lack of real and constructive policy; one reason why the UK is strong in the marine sector is its maritime history and the accumulated skills and knowledge and not its current merchant shipping capability, but try and find effective government support or policy that encourages this. It may seem that government is good at taking credit but not at constructive help. But in my view the less governments of whatevere colour do, the better because all too frequently they are part of the problem not the solution.
JMW
But in general, the whole British Leyland debacle is an exemplar of how government policy has done the manufacturing and engineering industry no service.
Basically it would appear that various companies were allowed to rip of the good bits without any oblication to the rest of the group. MG, Jaguar, Land Rover etc all being cherry picked and the core being left to rot. BMW even took out a brand name, the "Mini".
It isn't the case that the car industry is bad in the UK, but perhaps sectors of it have suffered overly from a variety of factors. I did have an illustration of the differnces that existed when I visited the then new Nissan Plant in Sunderland.
This project was a revelation. When I was there commissioning some equipment I had designed, the conveyor never stopped. Even when the operator had a problem with one of the vehicles he didn't stop the line, he went with it to fix the problem. Tea breaks and lunch breaks were partially devoted to re-stocking the trackside supply bins.
Meanwhile, at a BL (or whatever it was called then) plant in the Midlands, I never saw the conveyor moving on any of my visits and while most used automated equipment to fill windscreen reservoirs etc here they had a pallet of windscreen wash fluid in 1/2 litre bottles.
I guess there are therefore a lot of reasons we can attribute the decline to including unions, lack of investment, protectionism (nationalisation), and, of course, bad management.
Any one of which is bad news for any company but when a company suffers the whole lot and is faced by strong competition there must come a point where no-one can save it.
Insensitive comments just rub salt in the wounds.
If the group had been kept together or reasonably so then under a good owner the problems might have been resolved but since the "owners" essentially looted it of the good bits, what was left had little chance. Perhaps that was deliberate, a competitor eliminated.
Sad, because I thought the Rover 75 an excellent car and had hoped it might prove a way forward.
Now one asks just what role government had or should have had or should not have had in all this.
Too many industries that struggled were nationalised, which kept them going, but nothing was done to modernise them, reform working practices or fit them for a future when they could survive alone. When finally privatised they were left entirely to market forces they were ill equipped to survive.
From this I conclude that neither political regime can take any credit and neither Nationalisation nor Privatisation as exclusive policies has been a success though had these policies been integrated they both might have been very beneficial.
The UK government is obsessed with the service sector yet when we look at this sector we find only lip service paid to it and a lack of real and constructive policy; one reason why the UK is strong in the marine sector is its maritime history and the accumulated skills and knowledge and not its current merchant shipping capability, but try and find effective government support or policy that encourages this. It may seem that government is good at taking credit but not at constructive help. But in my view the less governments of whatevere colour do, the better because all too frequently they are part of the problem not the solution.
JMW
SomptingGuy
Automotive
Business and politics don't mix.
The bits of the old BMC that made sense are alive and well, employing many talented staff in the UK and in other places.
Jaguar and Land Rover are still serious engineering empoyers in the UK, even though they have US bean-counters. Rover's demise was inevitable, let's just hope that the IPR for the vehicles and (more importantly) the engines brings revenue to the UK.
The bits of the old BMC that made sense are alive and well, employing many talented staff in the UK and in other places.
Jaguar and Land Rover are still serious engineering empoyers in the UK, even though they have US bean-counters. Rover's demise was inevitable, let's just hope that the IPR for the vehicles and (more importantly) the engines brings revenue to the UK.
DrillerNic
Petroleum
1 million manufacturing jobs may have been lost in the UK over the last 8 years, but many (maybe most?) of those jobs weren't engineering- unless you want to count someone on a production line assembling telephones (or whatever) as an engineer. Dyson moved it's manufacturing to Malaysia, but retained all it's engineering & design expertise in the UK.
In Aberdeen, there's a shortage of skilled workers- I've just had two separate companies decline to bid for a lot of work we're planning this autumn as they simply can't get the field or workshop staff to do the work...
I don't think that service jobs can support a economy as large as the UK's- most service jobs just move money around an economy, whereas manfacturing bring money into an economy via exports or by coverting resources into goods; and Margaret Hodge's comments just show that she's an arse.....and she's supposed to come up with solutions for the pensions crisis in the UK!
In Aberdeen, there's a shortage of skilled workers- I've just had two separate companies decline to bid for a lot of work we're planning this autumn as they simply can't get the field or workshop staff to do the work...
I don't think that service jobs can support a economy as large as the UK's- most service jobs just move money around an economy, whereas manfacturing bring money into an economy via exports or by coverting resources into goods; and Margaret Hodge's comments just show that she's an arse.....and she's supposed to come up with solutions for the pensions crisis in the UK!
Cornwall is great for B&B and the Eden project but high tech or pseudo high tech got priced/distanced out long ago. It was just too remote.
I'm not sure it's any better now.
Sure they put in new road schemes (a Euro-highway, no less) but then they made damn sure it did you no good by littering them with speed cameras.
Result: you now have an equally slow drive but more boring as all the nice towns and villages are by-passed. The trains take just as long as they ever did. Airport expansion at Exeter does some good, I suppose but how does that help you when you need to get to Penzance or Truro in a hurry?
JMW
I'm not sure it's any better now.
Sure they put in new road schemes (a Euro-highway, no less) but then they made damn sure it did you no good by littering them with speed cameras.
Result: you now have an equally slow drive but more boring as all the nice towns and villages are by-passed. The trains take just as long as they ever did. Airport expansion at Exeter does some good, I suppose but how does that help you when you need to get to Penzance or Truro in a hurry?
JMW
You've just described the UK not just Cornwall. In fact I was down there only last week and would say that the A30 is a fantastic road for such a rural location. Come to Norfolk and have a go on some of ours,A47, A11 and then tell me what you think.
If industry set the demand, you would have another airport in not time.
Some good point made jmx, but I think the accountants should give more thought to family life before they decided to centralise an industry. Quality of life is playing an increasingly important part in people's decision making. In fact downsizing is now an option. Engineering has to learn to supply what people need and have some of the best benefits around, if it wants the best.
Lets face it how many of us could quite easily work a large percentage of the week at home. Not all I know, but for those who could and would there is a real option of living in some supurb locations, earn good money commute when needed. This is an option in Aberdeen to, engineers dont have to be office bound. May be we're missing a trick here that could help with skills shortages and benefits.
If industry set the demand, you would have another airport in not time.
Some good point made jmx, but I think the accountants should give more thought to family life before they decided to centralise an industry. Quality of life is playing an increasingly important part in people's decision making. In fact downsizing is now an option. Engineering has to learn to supply what people need and have some of the best benefits around, if it wants the best.
Lets face it how many of us could quite easily work a large percentage of the week at home. Not all I know, but for those who could and would there is a real option of living in some supurb locations, earn good money commute when needed. This is an option in Aberdeen to, engineers dont have to be office bound. May be we're missing a trick here that could help with skills shortages and benefits.
SomptingGuy
Automotive
makeup: "Quality of life is playing an increasingly important part in people's decision making."
Absolutely. If I could really do my job (or a similar one) from Cornwall, I'd be there in a flash. I live where I live because my job dictates it. Who'd choose Sompting over somewhere in Cornwall?
And as far as roads go, once you get to Exeter, it's like a flying carpet down through Devon and Cornwall.
Absolutely. If I could really do my job (or a similar one) from Cornwall, I'd be there in a flash. I live where I live because my job dictates it. Who'd choose Sompting over somewhere in Cornwall?
And as far as roads go, once you get to Exeter, it's like a flying carpet down through Devon and Cornwall.
DrillerNic
Petroleum
Makeup,
The history of Aberdeen becoming the base for the UK O&G industry is intersting....when the first hint of the North Sea was around at the start of the 70's, Dundee just assumed that as it was one of the biggest ports on the eaast coat of Scotland, the industry would base itself there.
Aberdeen had one big advantage- an airport, but also the local council went out and hustled and asked the industry what they wanted. As a result the local council bought a lot of farmland on the edge of the city, put in utilites and roads to create what is now the Wellheads Industrial Estate and the Altens Industrial Estate....the industry followed and the North East of Scotland is now one of the richest parts of the UK.
Personally I'd have preferred Dundee!
The history of Aberdeen becoming the base for the UK O&G industry is intersting....when the first hint of the North Sea was around at the start of the 70's, Dundee just assumed that as it was one of the biggest ports on the eaast coat of Scotland, the industry would base itself there.
Aberdeen had one big advantage- an airport, but also the local council went out and hustled and asked the industry what they wanted. As a result the local council bought a lot of farmland on the edge of the city, put in utilites and roads to create what is now the Wellheads Industrial Estate and the Altens Industrial Estate....the industry followed and the North East of Scotland is now one of the richest parts of the UK.
Personally I'd have preferred Dundee!
DrillNic
Spot on. Your area was extremely proactive while ours sat on their arse and did nothing to support the O&G money that was here. We bled it dry. Instead we bread a council of fat cats and lazy arses who have a lot to answer for in the demise of my local area. I admire Aberdeen for this. But unfortunately I would not consider working there or taking my family and it is the overall asthetics of Aberdeen that stops this from happening. Not the people, they're great, not the positions available, they look (as you have stated) competitively renumerated. But its cold, wet and grey and very expensive to get home. I can fly to Spain cheaper that I can get to Aberdeen.
My favourite saying 'if you want to be different, be different'. I just dont see engineering taking any new ways of addressing the skills issue they have. We have a total lack of inspriration in our management. As you have also state, they would rather lose the contract than effectively address the skills need. And there are so many options that would address these problems. Accepting transferable skills, win back some of those engineers that have left, and so on. We've just got to learn to be different.
Spot on. Your area was extremely proactive while ours sat on their arse and did nothing to support the O&G money that was here. We bled it dry. Instead we bread a council of fat cats and lazy arses who have a lot to answer for in the demise of my local area. I admire Aberdeen for this. But unfortunately I would not consider working there or taking my family and it is the overall asthetics of Aberdeen that stops this from happening. Not the people, they're great, not the positions available, they look (as you have stated) competitively renumerated. But its cold, wet and grey and very expensive to get home. I can fly to Spain cheaper that I can get to Aberdeen.
My favourite saying 'if you want to be different, be different'. I just dont see engineering taking any new ways of addressing the skills issue they have. We have a total lack of inspriration in our management. As you have also state, they would rather lose the contract than effectively address the skills need. And there are so many options that would address these problems. Accepting transferable skills, win back some of those engineers that have left, and so on. We've just got to learn to be different.
DrillerNic
Petroleum
makeup- so you don't believe the propaganda about Aberdeen being "Sliver city" and how the "granite buildings sparkle beautifly in the sunshine"? The main problem service co.s are having is lead times to manufacture tools and train staff, so they are having to turn down work right now. they are recruiitng hard- a paper mill shut down recently and apparently several oil personell agencies were waiting outside the carpark waving signing bonuses etc.
Where are you? I worked in Great Yarmouth for 9 months (that was pretty desperate) and the MD of the company we were using moaned how the local council wouldn't give planning permission in the past for harbour expansion or new industrial parks etc because it might deter the holiday makers. Now of course, people prefer to go to Spain, rather than Great Yarmouth (it's cheaper too) and the oil industry has either moved to Aberdeen, Easington or Cleethorpes, so Great Yarmouth is left with no tourism and little oil industry...
One answer to lack of skills in engineering is for all of us to encourage people to enter the field. I've taken part in a scheme run by the IMechE to go into schools, telling them what I do , what an engineer does, how to get in to the field and so on. Pictures of me on a drill rig, pictures of me living in different countries always seems to excite curiosity, and when I talk of the pay rates, interest usually picks up.
Where are you? I worked in Great Yarmouth for 9 months (that was pretty desperate) and the MD of the company we were using moaned how the local council wouldn't give planning permission in the past for harbour expansion or new industrial parks etc because it might deter the holiday makers. Now of course, people prefer to go to Spain, rather than Great Yarmouth (it's cheaper too) and the oil industry has either moved to Aberdeen, Easington or Cleethorpes, so Great Yarmouth is left with no tourism and little oil industry...
One answer to lack of skills in engineering is for all of us to encourage people to enter the field. I've taken part in a scheme run by the IMechE to go into schools, telling them what I do , what an engineer does, how to get in to the field and so on. Pictures of me on a drill rig, pictures of me living in different countries always seems to excite curiosity, and when I talk of the pay rates, interest usually picks up.
Silver city?
I have always known Aberdeen (meaning between the Dee and the Don?) as the Granite City.
Is this corporate re-branding?
I was there a couple of weeks ago and had to stay in the Holiday Inn at the exhibition centre and a colleague was put up in the staff quarters of another hotel (with shared bathroom, unmade beds etc) because the offshore crews were changing shifts and had cornered the market in hotel rooms.
My fault on timing I guess and wish I could remember the nice private hotel I used to stay in before. But the weather was beautiful.
JMW
I have always known Aberdeen (meaning between the Dee and the Don?) as the Granite City.
Is this corporate re-branding?
I was there a couple of weeks ago and had to stay in the Holiday Inn at the exhibition centre and a colleague was put up in the staff quarters of another hotel (with shared bathroom, unmade beds etc) because the offshore crews were changing shifts and had cornered the market in hotel rooms.
My fault on timing I guess and wish I could remember the nice private hotel I used to stay in before. But the weather was beautiful.
JMW
I'm in Great Yarmouth mate. What a state it has become when measured against former days. I still dont think our council has a clue what to do to get us out of this mess. They still think fruit machines will do the trick.
My full admiration for getting involved with schools mate.
My full admiration for getting involved with schools mate.
I may be reading you wrong, but I do hope their interest picks up a bit before getting to the pay rates.
Once upon a time engineering was the profession. You'd think all those images of being out there in all weathers and seasons doing an interesting and vital job would excite them no-end.
You know, I think what engineering needs is some real blood and gore if that's what it takes to get their interest; just to show that today's kids don't all have to grow up wanting to be car thieves, speed merchants or mass murders or whatever to get their thrills.
If they can produce all those computer games without a care for reality or what it does to their brains then fairs fair, lets have an equally un-realistic Play Station game set on an oil rig, building bridges and damns (should that "n" be there?) designing aircraft etc. If computer games is the way to their minds, why scruple not to use it as a channel to introduce engineering?
JMW
Once upon a time engineering was the profession. You'd think all those images of being out there in all weathers and seasons doing an interesting and vital job would excite them no-end.
You know, I think what engineering needs is some real blood and gore if that's what it takes to get their interest; just to show that today's kids don't all have to grow up wanting to be car thieves, speed merchants or mass murders or whatever to get their thrills.
If they can produce all those computer games without a care for reality or what it does to their brains then fairs fair, lets have an equally un-realistic Play Station game set on an oil rig, building bridges and damns (should that "n" be there?) designing aircraft etc. If computer games is the way to their minds, why scruple not to use it as a channel to introduce engineering?
JMW
Ah! but ScottyUK, you don't have to be old to know history or to know that in some places engineers are still well regarded.
By the way, you'e not the Scotty who'd always be gantering on about cracked dilithium crystals in ersatz scots are you?
and that makes me wonder just how much good he did the engineering profession.
JMW
By the way, you'e not the Scotty who'd always be gantering on about cracked dilithium crystals in ersatz scots are you?
and that makes me wonder just how much good he did the engineering profession.
JMW
DrillerNic
Petroleum
jmw- to be fair on the modern automated drill rigs, you need somneone adept in computer gaming to work all the joysticks in the right order! The children are ususally pretty interested in the pictures of the rigs and the different locations I've worked, (working at the wellsite still has a sort of glamour, as I remember from my days living single in London!) and the mix of office and outside work and foriegn travel often appeals.
As for pay, well all the kids are materialistic these days aren't they? It's all bling bling and respect and stuff. Mention being on £1500 a week with free meals and stuff and there's often one chid that says "that's like a footballer!".
Apart from Aberdeen, where they're all far too well informed and look at you in pity for working with a consultancy or service company rather than at the top of food chain in an oil company!
As for pay, well all the kids are materialistic these days aren't they? It's all bling bling and respect and stuff. Mention being on £1500 a week with free meals and stuff and there's often one chid that says "that's like a footballer!".
Apart from Aberdeen, where they're all far too well informed and look at you in pity for working with a consultancy or service company rather than at the top of food chain in an oil company!
DrillerNic
Petroleum
makeup- the Cliff on Thursdays in Great Yarmouth- scary!!
I quite liked Great Yarmouth when I was there- the seafront was a bit depressing: seeing restaurants advertising Pizza in the 'exotic' section of the painted menus and stuff. But there were some great places to go and to eat, the only problem is the local council didn't seem to have any idea what Great Yarmouth was for, or how to run the local economy.
I quite liked Great Yarmouth when I was there- the seafront was a bit depressing: seeing restaurants advertising Pizza in the 'exotic' section of the painted menus and stuff. But there were some great places to go and to eat, the only problem is the local council didn't seem to have any idea what Great Yarmouth was for, or how to run the local economy.
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