House Review - Site Visit without report?

[Ben29]

Would you do a cursory review of a house without providing a report? I was contacted by a man who just wants a SE to walk a house with him that he is interested in purchasing. He doesn't want to pay for a report. Quite frankly I don't want to do a report because they are so time consuming. But I am interested in walking the house to point out structural issues that I see.

It all comes down to liability, I know. So if you feel a report is absolutely required, how can you write a report in such a way that it takes less than an hour and also has CYA verbiage built in?

 

[SE2607]

Are people really doing written contracts for small house projects? The whole point of doing a small job is an easy $600-$2000 that ranges from a site visit only (like mentioned in the OP) to maybe a quick design/ drawing/ report.

I write a proposal for everything that includes calculations and/or drawings. I provide a verbal proposal for site visits and associated reports, usually in email form. As others have mentioned, I use a template for the proposals and about the only think I change is the owner's name and property address, client's name and any other site specific information. I then drop in an Excel spreadsheet containing my fee and remuneration schedule. 15 minutes. Tops.

 

[KootK]

Funny, just the opposite for me.

I expect that is very market dependent. In residential, the fees are pretty tight for the reports. Barely modest time rates for me. I do a lot of my reporting work on industrial assignments where a day trip somewhere and a 4HR report nets me on the order of $3,000. If I could reliably get one of those a week, I might do nothing but. I could totally get behind a one day work week that's 5 HRS of drive time. I love audio books and podcasts. My lower back less so...

 

[XR250]

I expect that is very market dependent. In residential, the fees are pretty tight for the reports. Barely modest time rates for me. I do a lot of my reporting work on industrial assignments where a day trip somewhere and a 4HR report nets me on the order of $3,000. If I could reliably get one of those a week, I might do nothing but. I could totally get behind a one day work week that's 5 HRS of drive time. I love audio books and podcasts. My lower back less so...

My undiagnosed A.D.D. prevents me from wanting to do a report longer than about 20 minutes.
I'll take a $1,000 deck that requires 30 ,minutes design and drafting anyday.

 

[jerseyshore]

My undiagnosed A.D.D. prevents me from wanting to do a report longer than about 20 minutes.
I'll take a $1,000 deck that requires 30 ,minutes design and drafting anyday.

I'm with you. Not a giant fan of the longer reports. I want to spend 1 hr max on the whole thing. Good thing to do after the kids go to sleep and no one bothers me.

 

[KootK]

I'll take a $1,000 deck that requires 30 ,minutes design and drafting anyday.

Whelp.... if you're rocking $2,000 / HR then I admiringly yield to your business strategy.

You should farm some decks out to me. I'll only charge you $1,000 / HR. Canadian even!

 

[Eng16080]

Are people really doing written contracts for small house projects? The whole point of doing a small job is an easy $600-$2000 that ranges from a site visit only (like mentioned in the OP) to maybe a quick design/ drawing/ report.

I do, but it takes maybe 15 minutes to create the agreement/contract. I then use Adobe Sign to have the document digitally signed. I recall my insurance provider inquiring about the amount of work I do without a signed contract, so I try to avoid that.

I'll take a $1,000 deck that requires 30 ,minutes design and drafting anyday.

Well, I'm about 10 times slower than this!

 

[XR250]

Well, I'm about 10 times slower than this!

To be fair, I am wickedly fast at drafting as I have been doing it since 1991 with basically the same program (my thumb arthritis will attest to this). And I can design most decks without even putting pencil to paper or calculator.

 

[ViaParadise]

I really appreciate all the responses. Part of the reason I signed up to this site was because using reddit as a forum is extremely difficult when there are so many non-engineers who can participate and almost everyone seems to have a mindset of doom and gloom. That said, being aware of litigation and working to avoid it is certainly a reasonable concern. It just feels hard since I try to be charitable so that once I got my engineering degree I want(ed) to help people as well as earn a few extra bucks here and there. Even before graduating I helped some friends do walk throughs looking for construction issues, so the degrees just put some funny initials next to my name now. Thanks y'all.

 

[Ron247]

The OP was about not writing a report if you are providing the service in general. Lack of writing something; report, contract, CYA note etc. is apparently not advised. Whatever you do write, needs to be thought-out to some degree. You can write yourself into trouble.

Beyond the money, doing something like this does seem fun as a little side job and also even charitable in being able to give people your opinion in the hopes that it helps them buy a home. But, if the result is just litigation ending in stress, lost time and money, and even licensure issues then it seems ridiculously difficult to even TRY and be a 'good' engineer in this way.

I have done small jobs like these for years; "but not for fun, not to be charitable and not to make friends." You will be surprised how expensive some of these "side jobs" can get, therefore, you better get paid and had better be able to hang on to the money.

One example, owner of a house I looked at for a buyer, called me at 9:00 PM (got my number from my Client), to ask me how to repair ALL the issues I noted. Their logic, since I reported them, I should have to tell them how to repair them. I advised them to hire a licensed contractor; she did not like that advice and wanted to argue. I spent 15 minutes of my night trying to tactfully get rid of her. Finally, she disgustingly asked me "Are these something my husband could fix?" My answer was; " I have no idea how stupid your husband is". Next day, I called my client and told them what happened. They laughed and apologized for giving them my number but did so because the Owner was so insistent with them also. Basically, the client shoved the unreasonable owner onto me. Due to that lost 15 minutes, I still don't know who the killer was on that episode of "Murder She Wrote".

For every bad instance like this, I have had 20 with no issues.

 

[gte447f]

Are people really doing written contracts for small house projects? The whole point of doing a small job is an easy $600-$2000 that ranges from a site visit only (like mentioned in the OP) to maybe a quick design/ drawing/ report.

You aren't? Why not? It's just basic good business practice. Plus, my professional liability insurance carrier basically requires (or at least strongly encourages) a written contract. I assume they either would not insure me without written contracts, or they would at least charge me a significantly higher premium.

 

[JoshPlumSE]

I think it is fine to do this if you have a contract that limits your liability. Honestly, I do verbal consultations all the time without reports.

I've done this a couple of times for friends, neighbors or relatives.... Mostly just a walk through the house for them to point out any concerns. Then tell them what I thought about the concerns. No contract, just being a good friend.

One was very grateful. He was getting a number of cracks in his drywall after having been in the house (build in the 50s?) for 20 years and not having any. In particular pointed out that drywall cracks are not usually a "structural" concern on their own, but they are one of the most brittle materials in the house. So, when movement / settlement occurs you will notice it in the drywall first. After walking around his house, I pointed out that these cracks (while minor) suggest one particular corner of his house had settled recently.... I suggested maybe a pipe leak or something. He had an "aha" moment where he admitted that 18 months ago he'd excavated right next to that corner to replace a waste water line that was was clogged with tree roots. Mystery solved.

Then I also pointed out to my friend that most of the settlement is expected to occur in the first 3 years. And, it will be a lot less after that....


If I were to do something like this for a fee, I would write up a short contract. Then I'd log my site visit in detail and keep records of what we discussed. Just trying to cover my butt in case the client disputes what was discussed.

 

[JoelTXCive]

Also, in your email.... It's important to use good phrasing that doesn't get you in trouble.

For example...... which of these statements is better???

Statement 1: "There are no significant foundation cracks or evidence of settlement."

Statement 2: "No foundation cracks or evidence of significant settlement were observed during the walkthrough"

 

[Ron247]

Statement 2: "No foundation cracks or evidence of significant settlement were observed during the walkthrough"

2 looks better to me. The more definitive your verbiage is, the more accurate you had better be. #1 is more definitive, "no significant cracks are present" whereas #2 is less definitive and indicates the more accurate circumstances of the review.

I would more likely say "visible evidence of significant".

I have already told attorneys I know to ALWAYS consider challenging, "there was no settlement". Structures settle some amount; it may be so small in magnitude it is not measurable with normal equipment, but they do settle some or else many of our theories on structural behavior would not apply. It just makes the other side clarify their statement. Their backtracking looks bad, but it is because they chose to say, "no settlement" whereas they should have acknowledged some settlement is unavoidable and to be expected. My main point to the attorneys is that only zero is none. An amount of .00000000001" settlement is not zero. Basically, say what you can back up.

 

[Enable]

I’ve been a contractor far longer than I’ve been an engineer, but that experience taught me something I feel may be prophylactic for some in this thread. You can’t stop crazy people from doing crazy things or hot heads from doing hot head things. If someone is the type to sue at the drop of a hat, they’ll sue you or threaten to do so regardless of what you do. So really the best course of action is to simply do what you feel comfortable with, and which leaves you on solid ground, and not sweat the rest. What comes will be and all that.

 

[jerseyshore]

You aren't? Why not? It's just basic good business practice. Plus, my professional liability insurance carrier basically requires (or at least strongly encourages) a written contract. I assume they either would not insure me without written contracts, or they would at least charge me a significantly higher premium.

Like I said, the goal of these small jobs is to be as efficient as possible and the fees don't necessarily allow for spending extra time on paperwork. Plus, typically for real estate related jobs you don't even have the client info ahead of time.

 

[Tomfh]

where a day trip somewhere and a 4HR report nets me on the order of $3,000. If I could reliably get one of those a week, I might do nothing but. I could totally get behind a one day work week that's 5 HRS of drive tim

Yep. Those are great. I’ve started talking to ChatGPT on the way home too, when it’s all fresh in my mind, and getting it to produce the draft report for me.. It’s great. You just talk off the cuff, and then it produces a report in your normal style.

 

[Tomfh]

One example, owner of a house I looked at for a buyer, called me at 9:00 PM (got my number from my Client), to ask me how to repair ALL the issues I noted. Their logic, since I reported them, I should have to tell them how to repair them.

I’ve definitely had that. I did a pre construction dilapidation survey for someone, and afterwards she expected a full remedial scope. She kept saying “all you’ve done is told me the problems! you haven’t actually done anything!”

 

[XR250]

Yep. Those are great. I’ve started talking to ChatGPT on the way home too, when it’s all fresh in my mind, and getting it to produce the draft report for me.. It’s great. You just talk off the cuff, and then it produces a report in your normal style.

Did not know it had that capability. Will have to try that.

 

[gte447f]

Like I said, the goal of these small jobs is to be as efficient as possible and the fees don't necessarily allow for spending extra time on paperwork. Plus, typically for real estate related jobs you don't even have the client info ahead of time.

To each his own, but I have a written agreement in place with the client for every project before starting, regardless of the scope of services, and one way or another I get paid for the cost to administer the project (including intake, setup, negotiation, contract execution, invoicing, etc.), whether by direct billing or as overhead within my normal hourly billing rate. For a small job like a residential structural condition assessment, project administration time usually amounts to about 0.5-1.0 hour. Answering the phone, discussing the scope of services being requested, confirming the client's contact info, inputting the scope of services and client contact info into a service agreement, obtaining the client's signature to authorize the services, and receiving payment is routine for these types of projects and non-negotiable.

P.S. What do you mean by "for real estate related jobs you don't even have the client info ahead of time"? You are starting work without even knowing who your client is?