From time to time, I receive unsolicited inquiries from head hunters who try to get me to jump ship. These are people I don't know and have never contacted, yet they seem to have no problem contacting me (and others I am sure) out of the blue about a position they are trying to fill. The issue I have is that to me, it seems unethical for them to be contacting a company's employees behind their back and try to pry them away from a position they are probably pretty comfortable with. It seems deceitful (and unethical) to contact the employees without first gaining permission from the employer (which I'd be willing to bet they would never get or even try to get). I realized a long time ago that this is just how they operate and it seems to be acceptable as the norm. I understand that if they waited for people to come to them in search of a position, they would probably be looking for a position themselves. I don't deny that head hunters can offer a valuable service, but only to those who are interested. Otherwise, they resemble the nuisance of telemarketers. Of course, there are bigger ethical dilemmas and I am not even sure if they are governed by a code of ethics. Thoughts?
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Head hunter poaching 3
- Thread starter MotorCity
- Start date
Regarding recruiter/headhunter salaries, keep in mind that not all recruiters work for themselves or employment agencies. Many work for the hiring company itself. I've been recruited several times by the later and only had discussions with the former.
Our company currently has a few recruiters, per location, under contract to fill positions that have been going unfilled under the normal recruitment process.
If there's any expansion whatsoever from the new tax law, there could be a shark-feeding frenzy to hire the few remaining unemployed technical professionals, and poaching of the already employed could begin in earnest.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
If there's any expansion whatsoever from the new tax law, there could be a shark-feeding frenzy to hire the few remaining unemployed technical professionals, and poaching of the already employed could begin in earnest.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
SandCounter
Mechanical
I agree with TheTick. There needs to be a healthy tension keeping both sides of the equation competitive.
I used to count sand. Now I don't count at all.
I used to count sand. Now I don't count at all.
Seemed to me like a gimmick to curry favor from the Donald.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
Guest
That can be much preferable to constructive dismissal, for both the employer and the employee. Constructive dismissal is commonly practiced against professionals, and in my jurisdiction (Ontario) at least, courts are generally much more favourable to employers.berkshire said:
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."
Guest
Interesting thread. For a long time I considered headhunters a lower form of life. But its probably a lot like real estate: many folks lured by the big commissions are trying it, most don't know what they are doing, some are quite unscrupulous, but the best ones are extremely useful and necessary.
Since going on LinkedIn I have received 3-5 calls per year. Most are legitimate, but usually miss the target because of my narrow specialization. I respond politely (to make them go away) and I might even take 5 minutes to point them in the right direction. However, I owe my current wonderful contract position to my keeping a profile up on LinkedIn (haven't edited it in at least 7 years). In my case it was the employer who contacted me directly.
LinkedIn is otherwise a horrid social media site with appalling, repetitive feature stories by chronic content producers (I hesitate to call them writers) peddling their books. Linkedin's business model is selling information they dredge up from the millions of profiles. The discussion forums are a waste of time; there are too many amateurs showing up try to crowd source solutions to their daily work, for which they are obviously unqualified to do. I like to share knowledge, but I'm not about to help a poacher steal my bread. Therefore (and due to my great facility with sarcasm), I avoid the discussion forums. (You know a company has jumped the shark when Microsoft buys them, which they did about a year ago for some billions of dollars.)
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."
Since going on LinkedIn I have received 3-5 calls per year. Most are legitimate, but usually miss the target because of my narrow specialization. I respond politely (to make them go away) and I might even take 5 minutes to point them in the right direction. However, I owe my current wonderful contract position to my keeping a profile up on LinkedIn (haven't edited it in at least 7 years). In my case it was the employer who contacted me directly.
LinkedIn is otherwise a horrid social media site with appalling, repetitive feature stories by chronic content producers (I hesitate to call them writers) peddling their books. Linkedin's business model is selling information they dredge up from the millions of profiles. The discussion forums are a waste of time; there are too many amateurs showing up try to crowd source solutions to their daily work, for which they are obviously unqualified to do. I like to share knowledge, but I'm not about to help a poacher steal my bread. Therefore (and due to my great facility with sarcasm), I avoid the discussion forums. (You know a company has jumped the shark when Microsoft buys them, which they did about a year ago for some billions of dollars.)
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."
Forensic74
Structural
And the whole premise of this thread shows one of the prime reasons why structural/civil engineers make relatively less money than other professions In other professions, the employees would welcome job opportunities and offers that would increase pay and force current employers to pay competitive wages. Instead, engineers seem more worried about loyalty than pay.
I'm not sure I'd take a coworker passing my name and resume along to headhunters as a negative thing, even if I enjoyed the position I was in. To me its the equivalent of someone signing me up for junk mail, maybe useful but probably not and definitely something so minor its not worth getting upset over.
As for SE/CE loyalty, I'd suspect that has more to do with SE/CEs more commonly working in rural areas and for small firms where loyalty is a part of keeping your job. A small SE/CE firm is 1-2 engineers, a small ME firm is usually 50+.
As for SE/CE loyalty, I'd suspect that has more to do with SE/CEs more commonly working in rural areas and for small firms where loyalty is a part of keeping your job. A small SE/CE firm is 1-2 engineers, a small ME firm is usually 50+.
I think SE and CE tend to deal with lower fee projects than ME. Just less money in the business. That is more likely the reason for lower pay than loyalty. Plus, it seems like SE and CE jobs tend to be more enjoyable to those who are in those discipline compared to ME. What I mean is that there seems to be more bitterness in the ME world than the SE/CE world. Maybe this is a result of ME being more based in large corps than SE/CE and likely more exposed to layoffs. SE/CE jobs are usually pretty stable. Riskier jobs pay more - when you have them. I do know several MEP engineers who are quite content, but probably paid less than an ME at GE...
Oh, and most recruiters reach out to people with the wrong experience because they are not engineers and don't know there is a significant difference. Or they do and are hoping to get a referral, regardless. Most of them are pretty dumb. I'm at a point in my career that I would probably only be interested in a company whose top leadership became interested in me and reached out. I doubt very seriously that a position I would want would be farmed to a recruiter to find a candidate.
Oh, and most recruiters reach out to people with the wrong experience because they are not engineers and don't know there is a significant difference. Or they do and are hoping to get a referral, regardless. Most of them are pretty dumb. I'm at a point in my career that I would probably only be interested in a company whose top leadership became interested in me and reached out. I doubt very seriously that a position I would want would be farmed to a recruiter to find a candidate.
I don't think CEs/SEs are inherently any more or less loyal than other engineers, there's plenty of turnover in this field just like any other. Tend to agree with Terratek that the lower salaries at least in the consulting world tend to be driven a decent amount by the lower fees. Another factor is far more civil engineers work for state and local government than other engineering field.
I view this practice as an aspect of the free market, and I view it as a positive force in driving engineering salaries upward. Recruiters are often scummy, and you need to be careful when you deal with them. I've had some bad experiences. But the overall net result of the recruiting culture is a positive one for the engineers doing the work, in my opinion.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -
I used to have a negative view of head hunters similar to many on this thread; however, I view them (the good ones, at least) highly now. I received a cold call one day - a voicemail, actually - and started to delete it, but didn't (uncharacteristically). We were just starting out on a job with a new client (and hence, a new project manager) and we hadn't won a proposal with our older clients in 10 months. I suppose in my gut, I liked having "an option" if business didn't pick up.
That same day, I found out that two proposals for one of our older clients I had authored were awarded to us, bringing in over $2 million in new business (desperately needed at the time). I was ecstatic - my boss called me into his office that afternoon. Expecting a handshake and pat on the back, I was floored when he told me that both of our project managers had complained to him that I was unresponsive and difficult to work with. He asked me why I thought that was the case - I had no clue (and still don't). I had never received feedback like that. No mention was made of the proposals or the new business I had a part in bringing in.
Both project managers were my contemporaries (we had worked together for years, they made it to the next level and I was in line to move up right behind them). I saw the writing on the wall and realized that I was being painted in a certain light to upper management (a trend that continued, I would learn) - I left my boss's office, took my coffee break, went for a walk, and called the head hunter that had left me that voicemail. I found him to be very professional, knowledgeable, and not slimy in the least (I was expecting used car salesman level). A year later - he helped connect me with the company I work for now. I once again look forward to coming to work. He never once just tried to "stick" me in a position; he only discussed opportunities with me that fit my expertise and interests; in fact, the only position that he brought to me seriously is the one for which I was hired. From a work perspective, I am much happier now than I was - and I owe that to a headhunter that I now call a friend. We still talk every few weeks or so just to talk.
That same day, I found out that two proposals for one of our older clients I had authored were awarded to us, bringing in over $2 million in new business (desperately needed at the time). I was ecstatic - my boss called me into his office that afternoon. Expecting a handshake and pat on the back, I was floored when he told me that both of our project managers had complained to him that I was unresponsive and difficult to work with. He asked me why I thought that was the case - I had no clue (and still don't). I had never received feedback like that. No mention was made of the proposals or the new business I had a part in bringing in.
Both project managers were my contemporaries (we had worked together for years, they made it to the next level and I was in line to move up right behind them). I saw the writing on the wall and realized that I was being painted in a certain light to upper management (a trend that continued, I would learn) - I left my boss's office, took my coffee break, went for a walk, and called the head hunter that had left me that voicemail. I found him to be very professional, knowledgeable, and not slimy in the least (I was expecting used car salesman level). A year later - he helped connect me with the company I work for now. I once again look forward to coming to work. He never once just tried to "stick" me in a position; he only discussed opportunities with me that fit my expertise and interests; in fact, the only position that he brought to me seriously is the one for which I was hired. From a work perspective, I am much happier now than I was - and I owe that to a headhunter that I now call a friend. We still talk every few weeks or so just to talk.
Dik said:
I certainly could have taken the conversation in that direction; a totally valid point.
Believe it or not, he was the one that forwarded me the emails awarding us the proposals - I had also worked very closely with him over a two week period to refine our estimate and tailor the presentation of our "standard" proposals. I say that to say that he was intimately familiar with the work I put into those proposals, how long it had been since we won a bid, and how "big a deal" that was in terms of maintaining our current work force. I suppose in that light, I had a "what's the point" feeling.
I had advocated for myself in many instances before and after that - don't get me wrong. I just recount that experience as the "moment" when I knew I needed to start looking elsewhere...and how fateful that it was on the same day I had a random voicemail from a recruiter.
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- #39
Sorry folks but I have a lot to share about head hunters as I have been on the market for a new opportunity for some time now.
I have found that head hunters come in all shapes and sizes and varying levels of skill, ethics, and morals. Most call if their keyword-finding program hits on two or three keywords or acronyms found on your resume. It doesn't matter if you have the basic qualifications for the role (e.g. ME degree or EE degree) because they don't read your resume. They call and email you nevertheless to waste your time (valuable) and theirs (not so valuable). I have come to the conclusion that 65% of recruiters are qualified to be recruiters based on their ability to sit and send boilerplate emails, make scripted phone calls, and convert food, air, and liquids into urine, fecal matter, and CO2. Many you cannot understand because they have thick accents and/or talk so fast you can't even make out their name, company, or phone number. Some as they read from their script, and if you ask questions along the way, they just continue on that script and talk over you until the end. I told some that I would communicate with them only in writing because I could not do so on the phone! Once they submit you to their client, 90% don't bother to let you know the outcome if you are passed by. Of course it's good business and good manners to do so but, hey, if it takes time to do so they figure why bother? That's probably orders from their bosses anyway. If you call to follow up on a job you really want, a slightly lower percentage, maybe 85%, will simply use their caller ID to ignore you and allow you to leave a message which they promptly delete with no further action. Then there are those with contract roles. I actually had a guy offer $55/hr on W2 to work in LA. To get $55/hr in Detroit money in LA means you need to get $81/hr (per the Bankrate.com COL calculator). A $55 rate in LA is equivalent to a $55(55/81)=$37 in Detroit! I call these recruiters "bottom fishers" who are preying on people who are desperate or never think about the higher COL in the client locations. I've actually received calls and emails for < $30/hr in Detroit money for W2 contract roles! Arghh! I've started blocking repeat phone numbers and emails from this seemingly endless stream of scum balls!
Am I wrong to suggest that the average head hunter has no skill, no manners, and a moral compass with all points directed solely at his/her bank account?
H. Bruce Jackson
ElectroMechanical Product Development
UMD 1984
UCF 1993
I have found that head hunters come in all shapes and sizes and varying levels of skill, ethics, and morals. Most call if their keyword-finding program hits on two or three keywords or acronyms found on your resume. It doesn't matter if you have the basic qualifications for the role (e.g. ME degree or EE degree) because they don't read your resume. They call and email you nevertheless to waste your time (valuable) and theirs (not so valuable). I have come to the conclusion that 65% of recruiters are qualified to be recruiters based on their ability to sit and send boilerplate emails, make scripted phone calls, and convert food, air, and liquids into urine, fecal matter, and CO2. Many you cannot understand because they have thick accents and/or talk so fast you can't even make out their name, company, or phone number. Some as they read from their script, and if you ask questions along the way, they just continue on that script and talk over you until the end. I told some that I would communicate with them only in writing because I could not do so on the phone! Once they submit you to their client, 90% don't bother to let you know the outcome if you are passed by. Of course it's good business and good manners to do so but, hey, if it takes time to do so they figure why bother? That's probably orders from their bosses anyway. If you call to follow up on a job you really want, a slightly lower percentage, maybe 85%, will simply use their caller ID to ignore you and allow you to leave a message which they promptly delete with no further action. Then there are those with contract roles. I actually had a guy offer $55/hr on W2 to work in LA. To get $55/hr in Detroit money in LA means you need to get $81/hr (per the Bankrate.com COL calculator). A $55 rate in LA is equivalent to a $55(55/81)=$37 in Detroit! I call these recruiters "bottom fishers" who are preying on people who are desperate or never think about the higher COL in the client locations. I've actually received calls and emails for < $30/hr in Detroit money for W2 contract roles! Arghh! I've started blocking repeat phone numbers and emails from this seemingly endless stream of scum balls!
Am I wrong to suggest that the average head hunter has no skill, no manners, and a moral compass with all points directed solely at his/her bank account?
H. Bruce Jackson
ElectroMechanical Product Development
UMD 1984
UCF 1993
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