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moltenmetal
Chemical
Read the article, THEN discuss...
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Girls in STEM is failing both girls and STEM? 99
- Thread starter moltenmetal
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Read the article, THEN discuss...
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- #221
I've just spent the afternoon in a local primary school where I took a couple of lessons teaching kids about 'Where does electricity come from'. The lesson was focused on what lies upstream of the sockets on the wall of the house: a whistle-stop tour of the power generation and T&D industries.
There were some thoughtful questions, and I'm pleased to say that quite a few of the girls were really interested and contributed a lot of the best questions. I'd made a bit of an effort to make sure there was a reasonable gender balance in the photos I used and I deliberately made the point that it was a profession open to both girls and boys. In reality there's a massive imbalance in my industry, but I think these kids are at the age where stereotypes haven't been fully formed and in their minds anything is still possible. I've got a bit of a vested interest here: in future when I'm recruiting I want a large pool of good candidates to choose from, so I want all the capable kids to study engineering and not accountancy, medicine or law - regardless of gender!
After my incredibly motivational lesson about how fantastic a career it was, I held a show of hands of who fancied an engineering career, and then asked a few of the kids who said they didn't want to go into engineering why. One young lady said it looked really interesting but there were two different jobs she just wanted to do more: a doctor, or an author. No one else came up with an answer like that, and I replied that the most important thing to choose was something she would be happy doing.
There were some thoughtful questions, and I'm pleased to say that quite a few of the girls were really interested and contributed a lot of the best questions. I'd made a bit of an effort to make sure there was a reasonable gender balance in the photos I used and I deliberately made the point that it was a profession open to both girls and boys. In reality there's a massive imbalance in my industry, but I think these kids are at the age where stereotypes haven't been fully formed and in their minds anything is still possible. I've got a bit of a vested interest here: in future when I'm recruiting I want a large pool of good candidates to choose from, so I want all the capable kids to study engineering and not accountancy, medicine or law - regardless of gender!
After my incredibly motivational lesson about how fantastic a career it was, I held a show of hands of who fancied an engineering career, and then asked a few of the kids who said they didn't want to go into engineering why. One young lady said it looked really interesting but there were two different jobs she just wanted to do more: a doctor, or an author. No one else came up with an answer like that, and I replied that the most important thing to choose was something she would be happy doing.
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
An interesting item from a STEM pioneer who makes the same points that Scotty did, that young people need to see role models and people like themselves in technical and scientific situations:
Mae Jemison: Diversity In STEM Isn’t A Nicety, It’s A Necessity
The first African-American woman in space discusses her agricultural science initiative.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
Mae Jemison: Diversity In STEM Isn’t A Nicety, It’s A Necessity
The first African-American woman in space discusses her agricultural science initiative.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
But that article, while not inaccurate, isn't entirely the end-all. EVERY subject demands early exposure (first and foremost) to develop interest, and then recognizable role models. Maybe STEM is just playing the same field as everyone else, and just losing out.
solid7,
Speaking to teachers at the school, our profession isn't losing on the same field, it simply doesn't bother to turn up to the game.
They were genuinely pleased that a few of us from the STEM fields made the time to go in, because they'd never had anyone from heavy industry come in with photographs and stories before. I thought that was quite a sad indictment of our industry.
Speaking to teachers at the school, our profession isn't losing on the same field, it simply doesn't bother to turn up to the game.
They were genuinely pleased that a few of us from the STEM fields made the time to go in, because they'd never had anyone from heavy industry come in with photographs and stories before. I thought that was quite a sad indictment of our industry.
I can't speak to the issue where you're at, but stateside, it's pushed very heavily. Especially in those areas where the industries chiefly reside, and where they are constantly putting forth "initiatives".
There are several defense contractors that are humongous proponents of women in STEM. They have a very visible presence in our schools.
There are several defense contractors that are humongous proponents of women in STEM. They have a very visible presence in our schools.
In the UK I think there's plenty support at an institutional level, among the professional bodies for example, but there's little or no support at a grass roots level. Banners and slogans don't connect with young kids in the way that sitting down in their class talking directly to them and fielding their questions on a one-to-one basis does. It's been quite an eye-opener for me.
Well, to be fair, citing scientific studies pointing to exactly that phenomena is what got James Damore fired at Google.
So it might be more intuitive for some people, and less intuitive for others.
Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -
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seen in the Facebook store:
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I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
I attended ethics training conducted by a law professor recently. He stated about 50% of JD grads are women. They are, largely, not promoted into higher positions in the profession so they quit or retire. People in that profession believe they need to increase the numbers of women practicing law, at all levels, else the profession will run into trouble.
He also stated two consequences for schools of law because of Watergate are: 1.) each law school must have an ethicist and 2.) each JD grad must take and pass an ethics class.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:
He also stated two consequences for schools of law because of Watergate are: 1.) each law school must have an ethicist and 2.) each JD grad must take and pass an ethics class.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:
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- #230
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
That reminds me of back in the mid-80's, when I was still working for McDonnell Douglas, and as a manager we had to occasionally make a 'pilgrimage' back to St. Louis (corporate headquarters) for training classes. One of those times, our Senior VP of Sales decided that the people in his group needed a class on ethics and ethical behavior as it related to our business activities. He thought, who better to deal with this subject than a lawyer, so he had one of the corporate MDC attorneys come in and host a session on the subject. The problem was that the attorney felt that our boss, like a lot of people, equated ethical behavior with what was legal. He tried to explain to us that there are many things, which while they're legal, would not be considered ethical by most people. And while it might be true that most unethical behavior probably did breach some legal boundary, we needed to make sure that we understand that there was a big difference between what was legal versus what was ethical. In fact, he made the point that if our boss had really wanted for us to get an insight into what was ethical and how that should pertains to our professional roles and responsibilities, that he would have been better off inviting one the Jesuit philosophy professors from the local St. Louis University.
Now don't get me wrong, I believe that all professionals, including attorneys, should have to take some basic classes in ethics or at least have some exposure to the principles. And while it's true that back in the 60's, my engineering curriculum didn't have any classes in ethics, I did have one elective literature class which covered the writings of many of the popular early philosophers as well as several electives in history. I felt that that, along with my religious upbringing, has at least provided me with a base for acting in an ethical manner when dealing with others.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
Now don't get me wrong, I believe that all professionals, including attorneys, should have to take some basic classes in ethics or at least have some exposure to the principles. And while it's true that back in the 60's, my engineering curriculum didn't have any classes in ethics, I did have one elective literature class which covered the writings of many of the popular early philosophers as well as several electives in history. I felt that that, along with my religious upbringing, has at least provided me with a base for acting in an ethical manner when dealing with others.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
More than 70% of lawyers in private practice work for firms of <20, so I'd reckon unless promotion to owner is possible that there isnt much promotion possibility.
I take several attorney-taught classes annually as part of the standard corporate CYA regime. Ethics comes up every few years through those folks but typically is taught via crappy online videos. Usually when legal is involved its some combination of import/export compliance, ITAR/national security, and IP protection/trademarking/patents with a ton of overlap in material between classes. I've jokingly told several supervisors that if they keep sending me to these classes then I'm going to start a firm that lawyers can subcontract the teaching to.
The best fun I had in a long time was our recent human trafficking training (to not do that). Apparently, we followed the letter of the law in the presentation, so "severe" human trafficking was prohibited, which raised the question of whether "moderate" or "mild" human trafficking was acceptable...
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
CWB1, they are largely blocked from judgeships, which are male dominated.
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:
Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:
JohnRBaker,
My experience with ethics training was when a big corporation took over the company I was working for. Their policy was to do an ethics training session every year. After my first session at this, I Googled the company name, and I found out why they were obsessed with ethics. I find it unlikely than an adult even without university training would not know you should not lie, cheat or steal. Ethics training can teach you when to make sure no one is looking. As I see it, ethics training can accomplish two things...
[ol]
[li]It can address issues where the correct ethical conduct is not obvious, and/or the slippery slopes that people enter that end in unethical conduct. That first step looks harmless.[/li]
[li]It shows the outside world that your organization is no longer unethical.[/li]
[/ol]
Why can't your organization simply write up a code of ethics, posts it in prominent places in the building, and email it around once a year? It sure helps if senior management is observed following the code.
--
JHG
My experience with ethics training was when a big corporation took over the company I was working for. Their policy was to do an ethics training session every year. After my first session at this, I Googled the company name, and I found out why they were obsessed with ethics. I find it unlikely than an adult even without university training would not know you should not lie, cheat or steal. Ethics training can teach you when to make sure no one is looking. As I see it, ethics training can accomplish two things...
[ol]
[li]It can address issues where the correct ethical conduct is not obvious, and/or the slippery slopes that people enter that end in unethical conduct. That first step looks harmless.[/li]
[li]It shows the outside world that your organization is no longer unethical.[/li]
[/ol]
Why can't your organization simply write up a code of ethics, posts it in prominent places in the building, and email it around once a year? It sure helps if senior management is observed following the code.
--
JHG
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
Yes, the last company I worked for had had a run-in with 'compliance issues' with some of their far- and middle-eastern operations, which took place just before they acquired our company. And yes, every years we had to take an on-line class in compliance training as well as a class explaining exactly who in the company could authorize what level of activity.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
"Why can't your organization simply write up a code of ethics, posts it in prominent places in the building, and email it around once a year? It sure helps if senior management is observed following the code."
Because, as mentioned above, ethical behavior and legal behavior aren't necessarily linked, and there are things that, while both legal and ethical, may have the appearance of the contrary, and just the hassle of having to prove that you did nothing wrong can cost a sizable amount of money and time, in addition to cost of lost opportunities. This mainly is an issue that shows up in our Foreign Corrupt Practices training, where "consultants" may be paid to help corral foreign customers; if they bribe government officials on our behalf, we wind up in a sh*tstorm.
Likewise, we have a son working at a large internet company, and we can't buy stock in the company unless it's during specific periods in the financial calendar, even though we never discuss anything about his work that could be considered insider information.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
Because, as mentioned above, ethical behavior and legal behavior aren't necessarily linked, and there are things that, while both legal and ethical, may have the appearance of the contrary, and just the hassle of having to prove that you did nothing wrong can cost a sizable amount of money and time, in addition to cost of lost opportunities. This mainly is an issue that shows up in our Foreign Corrupt Practices training, where "consultants" may be paid to help corral foreign customers; if they bribe government officials on our behalf, we wind up in a sh*tstorm.
Likewise, we have a son working at a large internet company, and we can't buy stock in the company unless it's during specific periods in the financial calendar, even though we never discuss anything about his work that could be considered insider information.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
This thread has descended into a compendium of personal experiences and conspiracy theories.
What I know now: everything is male dominated, tokenism is alive and well, and ethics are (apparently) situational.
So how exactly is STEM failing girls, again? I'm still waiting for that missing link that proves the agenda to keep girls (from an early age) from entering into STEM educations and thereby, careers. There is, as of yet, no convincing evidence that this phenomena is anything out of the ordinary. Surely, we'd have to analyze every known profession for gender disparity, to have a comprehensive discussion regarding gender demographics in the workplace. And we'd have to, conversely, analyze which professions are female dominated, and why. Then, we'd have to launch initiatives to bring more men into the fold, where they currently are lacking.
On personal experiences, here are a couple of my own. I had an abstract algebra professor who was a woman, and one of the most amazing mathematicians that I've ever seen. Her teaching methods were second to none. I had a proofs and problem solving professor who was a PhD in mathematics, and insanely brilliant. I wonder if anybody told them that there were forces at work keeping them out of this field. Or the countless engineers, scientists, and mathematicians that I worked with at NASA, Boeing, etc, who were also female. (and more than capable, might I add)
I've tried to be objective, but this topic has no teeth. I see no reason to believe that women/girls have any less chance of entering STEM careers/educations than men/boys. Sure, there are cases of sexism and gender bias. But that doesn't mean that it's endemic, or that the Illuminati are keeping the woman down.
What I know now: everything is male dominated, tokenism is alive and well, and ethics are (apparently) situational.
So how exactly is STEM failing girls, again? I'm still waiting for that missing link that proves the agenda to keep girls (from an early age) from entering into STEM educations and thereby, careers. There is, as of yet, no convincing evidence that this phenomena is anything out of the ordinary. Surely, we'd have to analyze every known profession for gender disparity, to have a comprehensive discussion regarding gender demographics in the workplace. And we'd have to, conversely, analyze which professions are female dominated, and why. Then, we'd have to launch initiatives to bring more men into the fold, where they currently are lacking.
On personal experiences, here are a couple of my own. I had an abstract algebra professor who was a woman, and one of the most amazing mathematicians that I've ever seen. Her teaching methods were second to none. I had a proofs and problem solving professor who was a PhD in mathematics, and insanely brilliant. I wonder if anybody told them that there were forces at work keeping them out of this field. Or the countless engineers, scientists, and mathematicians that I worked with at NASA, Boeing, etc, who were also female. (and more than capable, might I add)
I've tried to be objective, but this topic has no teeth. I see no reason to believe that women/girls have any less chance of entering STEM careers/educations than men/boys. Sure, there are cases of sexism and gender bias. But that doesn't mean that it's endemic, or that the Illuminati are keeping the woman down.
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solid7,
My mother is an internationally-renowned nuclear physicist. She wrote a computer program that is used all over the world, has led countless international conferences, and there is even a treaty written specifically to allow her program to be used in certain countries. She knows her stuff.
BUT. She would still show up at a conference and be assumed to be the secretary or FREAKIN' MISTRESS of some male physicist, or she would get mansplained in the committee she was leading. So explain to me how just because your teachers or colleagues were excellent in their fields, they never got any nonsense from anyone about being female?
Did you read any of the experiences from the female engineers on this board, or just assume that since you haven't seen it, it doesn't happen?
Please remember: we're not all guys!
My mother is an internationally-renowned nuclear physicist. She wrote a computer program that is used all over the world, has led countless international conferences, and there is even a treaty written specifically to allow her program to be used in certain countries. She knows her stuff.
BUT. She would still show up at a conference and be assumed to be the secretary or FREAKIN' MISTRESS of some male physicist, or she would get mansplained in the committee she was leading. So explain to me how just because your teachers or colleagues were excellent in their fields, they never got any nonsense from anyone about being female?
Did you read any of the experiences from the female engineers on this board, or just assume that since you haven't seen it, it doesn't happen?
Please remember: we're not all guys!
I don't assume that stupid and ignorant people don't do stupid and ignorant things. Just like I don't assume that strong and intelligent people don't rise above all of that. Your mother sounds amazing, and great on her for earning her rightful place.
But that doesn't mean that there is a widespread conspiracy. It just means that you've seen the worst of humanity. You seem to think that I'm discounting your experiences, and I know that you're discounting mine. Neither of our positions is convenient to other's position. But make not mistake about what I am saying - individual experiences do not constitute evidence of an overall problem. That was a problem in that case, and when it's clearly a problem, it clearly needs to be dealt with.
In mathematics, you cannot use a concrete problem to rigorously prove an abstract concept. In the same manner, you cannot use isolated incidents (in an unknown space of time) to make a pronouncement about the entire state of social affairs. Cannot.
But that doesn't mean that there is a widespread conspiracy. It just means that you've seen the worst of humanity. You seem to think that I'm discounting your experiences, and I know that you're discounting mine. Neither of our positions is convenient to other's position. But make not mistake about what I am saying - individual experiences do not constitute evidence of an overall problem. That was a problem in that case, and when it's clearly a problem, it clearly needs to be dealt with.
In mathematics, you cannot use a concrete problem to rigorously prove an abstract concept. In the same manner, you cannot use isolated incidents (in an unknown space of time) to make a pronouncement about the entire state of social affairs. Cannot.
"In mathematics, you cannot use a concrete problem to rigorously prove an abstract concept."
Mathematical induction is based precisely on being able to solve a concrete problem and proving that if it's true for n, it's true for n+1.
I don't think that what SLTA describes requires a conspiracy at all. The fact that everyone think's that pink is a girl color doesn't require anything remotely resembling a conspiracy; it's simple peer pressure and repeated exposure. btw, SLTA's mom sounds like an amazing woman and while "individual experiences do not constitute evidence of an overall problem," that only applies when there's insufficient evidence, which is clearly not the case. Watson and Crick got the credit for the double-helix and inside information about Rosalind Franklin's research, and heavily based their "discovery" on work that she had done. It's unclear whether Franklin could have come up with the same theory on her own, but she was certainly prevented from doing so by Watson and Crick getting her test results and reports through what amounted to an "ole boy's network" within the lab where they all worked.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
Mathematical induction is based precisely on being able to solve a concrete problem and proving that if it's true for n, it's true for n+1.
I don't think that what SLTA describes requires a conspiracy at all. The fact that everyone think's that pink is a girl color doesn't require anything remotely resembling a conspiracy; it's simple peer pressure and repeated exposure. btw, SLTA's mom sounds like an amazing woman and while "individual experiences do not constitute evidence of an overall problem," that only applies when there's insufficient evidence, which is clearly not the case. Watson and Crick got the credit for the double-helix and inside information about Rosalind Franklin's research, and heavily based their "discovery" on work that she had done. It's unclear whether Franklin could have come up with the same theory on her own, but she was certainly prevented from doing so by Watson and Crick getting her test results and reports through what amounted to an "ole boy's network" within the lab where they all worked.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
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