Garage found in Poor/Unsage Condition 5

[structuralsteelhead]

Upon a recent site visit to a potential clients residence, I found an unpermitted garage in very poor, unsafe, poorly constructed, not meeting any structural code (past or present)requirements, clearly in need of demolition, not rehabilitation. He wanted to install a new single car garage door. He suggested and independent garage door support frame, I suggested he accept a proposal from me for a new garage structure design. Whether or not I hear back from this fellow, I can't help but think this structure will fail in the next minute or two, maybe it has just now due to merely my thinking about it. While this a maybe more of an ethical question than structural, am I obligated to report such a dilapidated structure to the local building official? This possibly a question to present to the building official, or my respective state board. If the owner never sells his property or structure, this building will probably go unnoticed or found in violation. I would assume the risk remains with the owner and his wife and small children. I would imagine I'd eventually acquire a reputation of reporting potential clients to the local building official - not exactly a great marketing strategy! Is merely informing the client as to his garage structure's unsafe condition sufficient, maybe even in writing? Or should I drop a dime on him to the nearest inspector? What would you do?

 

[msquared48]

This is really a no-brainer as it is obviously disturbing you. You need to do something here, obviously. You have already stated your opinion to the owner. And you have no way to monitor any response to your opinion outside of him asking you for a proposal, which will probably not happen as he is obviously trying to save money, or the building comes down. That is not going to happen in my opinion.

I would write a letter to the local jurisdiction and suggest they send an inspector to the site to investigate it, stating your case. If you do not want your name on the record, you could also make an anonymous call to the building department too. Either way, you have done your due diligence in my opinion.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[SLTA]

Agree with Mike. Notify the building department.

 

[JAE]

Yes - notify the bldg. department if you see this as a possible hazard to public safety. "Public" being anyone (including the owner) who might go inside that structure.

 

[structuralsteelhead]

Thanks all for your responses and input regarding my "Unsafe", not "Unsage", structure.

 

[JAE]

Hopefully you didn't get any unsage advice here...

 

[TDIengineer]

If you really are concerned that someone will get hurt, make an anonymous tip.

Otherwise, as others have noted, you have told the owner (in writing) that there are problems. It is up to the owner now to act, if at all, and take the risk if they so choose.

You're the engineer, not the enforcement. That's up to the local jurisdiction as others have noted.

 

[steellion]

It won't take a lot of detective work for the owner to determine who made the "anonymous" tip. You would be best served to inform your client that you intend to report this as a safety hazard, then report it as you are ethically required to do. At least you are then upfront with your client rather than going behind their back.

 

[TDIengineer]

I was wrong. Steelion got it right. The following was pulled from State of Illinois requirements. Be upfront with the client.


What action should a design professional take if the design professional becomes aware of a decision taken by
the design professional’s employer or client, against the design professional’s advice, which violates applicable
State or municipal laws and regulations and which will, in the design professional’s judgment, materially and
adversely affect the safety of the public?

The design professional shall report the decision to the local inspector or public official charged with the
enforcement of the applicable State or municipal laws and regulations, and refuse to consent to the decision,
and withdraw the professional’s services with respect to the project.

If the decision was made by unlicensed or unqualified individuals, the design professional should file a
complaint with the Department of Financial and Professional Regulation.

 

[msquared48]

I like the up front too, but this individual is a POTENTIAL client, not a client, so there is no engineer-client relationship to deal with here, yet.

I would walk away from this - heck I'd run, as I would question whether he had the money to pay for my services, or would, let alone do what I designed - just a gut call.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[jayrod12]

I agree with Mike that you should run. But there is still the ethical dilemma about whether you report it or not.

If it was me I would probably be compelled to tell the building authority however I would talk to the homeowner first to tell him I was going. If the garage is in that bad of shape I would hope he would understand (even though he will be super upset). Who knows, the authority might not follow up on something like a residential garage.

 

[JoshPlumSE]

Some thoughts on this subject:
1) Sometimes we throw around words like "unsafe" a little too easily. But, in legal circles you want to avoid language like that unless you can really back it up with engineering calculations. If you haven't performed a detailed investigation of the structure then you shouldn't use that word. "potentially unsafe" or "appears to be unsafe" would be better if you have any doubts about being able to back up your claim in a court of law. If the structure has been standing for a number of years then would a jury of lay people agree with your assessment of "unsafe" or "imminent collapse" if you got caught up in a lawsuit?

2) Describe the structure in more objective terms like you would in an engineering report. Structure is out of plumb by x number of inches. When pushed on by a man with average strength (less than 100 lbs of lateral force), a sway of y number of inches was observed. Main supporting beam exhibited dry rot / decay that extended z percentage of beam width.

3) You want to be careful with the wording of any letter you send to your client. Just the fact that he brought you out to his site means that he is a client and that he has entered into some verbal contract with you for services rendered. If your letter worded poorly it can come off as extortion. "I have recommended that you hire me to design a replacement structure. If you do not, then I will report you to the authorities."

You wouldn't word the letter like that, obviously. But, if the engineering board sees it then you want it to be perfectly clear on its own. State your opinion about the structure. Suggest that he may not want to allow any occupancy to the structure until the issues are resolved. Suggest that he get a second opinion from another engineer or building inspector if he questions your assessment.

 

[oldestguy]

I'd be careful about wording, as advised above. However, how many of the members commenting on this, as well as the writer, have torn down an old dilapidated building? Sometimes what appears ready to fall down might not be that bad. If it was in good enough shape to maybe have a door hung, and the winds have not shoved it over, snow caved in the roof, etc., then be careful with wording. Sometimes things back fire on the best intentions.

 

[JAE]

JoshPlum....all very good points. I tend to agree with their general slant. But consider the following thoughts:

1) There is nothing wrong, or for that matter, seriously risky, to write a letter saying that in your engineering opinion a building appears to be unsafe and some efforts should be made to ensure that under its current condition it is safe. Obviously one should NOT extort the client or suggest that they hire you. But I would (and have) suggested that another independent engineer be engaged to verify its safety.

2) Describing X inches of deflection, or a percent of dry rot, does not meet an engineer's mandate to protect the public if indeed, in your opinion, you see a structure as unsafe. To a layman a percent of dry rot is meaningless.

3) I think your points tend to suggest that the engineer has something to lose if they raise a red flag about a structure. I would suggest the opposite. The engineer has plenty more to lose if they see such a decrepit structure and DON'T respond and someone gets hurt. Then you are really in deep doo doo. The engineer should safeguard the public welfare and safety, even if it risks the engineers reputation, clients, etc.

Now having said the above, I do agree that you should make more than just a brief overview of a structure before raising the issue. A thorough review of the structure, perhaps some independent (non-paid for) calculations), identifying or listing various obvious problems would be helpful.