I came across this site, where a structural engineer designs for free!!!!
Michael.
Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance.
Michael.
Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance.
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Free structural engineering! 3
- Thread starter paddingtongreen
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Structural20036...
To follow on to JAE's excellent points, I would encourage you to read your state's engineering law and rules of practice. You will likely find that there are several violations of your state's practice act. Even if they seem relatively minor to you, they whittle away at the professionalism and perception of our profession, thus reducing the stature of an engineer in the eyes of the public....if it goes much lower, why have laws at all?
This is not the way engineering was intended to be practiced nor should it be practiced this way. We are a "hands on" profession...both by necessity and statute. In this case, the "client" doesn't necessarily (and most likely does not) have the expertise to make site observations to pass on to the engineer.
The engineer can provide as many caveats as he would like in his answer....the problem is that, as a professional engineer, you cannot disclaim negligence. Our services are sometimes difficult enough when we can directly see the issues...image how poor that service would be if the engineer cannot see or know of the issues. Ignorance is not bliss in this case. Ignorance is dangerous.
To follow on to JAE's excellent points, I would encourage you to read your state's engineering law and rules of practice. You will likely find that there are several violations of your state's practice act. Even if they seem relatively minor to you, they whittle away at the professionalism and perception of our profession, thus reducing the stature of an engineer in the eyes of the public....if it goes much lower, why have laws at all?
This is not the way engineering was intended to be practiced nor should it be practiced this way. We are a "hands on" profession...both by necessity and statute. In this case, the "client" doesn't necessarily (and most likely does not) have the expertise to make site observations to pass on to the engineer.
The engineer can provide as many caveats as he would like in his answer....the problem is that, as a professional engineer, you cannot disclaim negligence. Our services are sometimes difficult enough when we can directly see the issues...image how poor that service would be if the engineer cannot see or know of the issues. Ignorance is not bliss in this case. Ignorance is dangerous.
MiketheEngineer
Structural
Lets say I have cancer. I am NOT going to take the recommendations of some newspaper doctor too seriously since he has never seen me, my records, X-rays, etc. He might have a few suggestions I need to check out - but that is about it.
Sort of the same w/ Engineers.
Ladies and gentlemen - we need to promote the professionalism of our profession - not cheapen it but letting guys like this violate probably every state rule and code of ethics!!!
Sort of the same w/ Engineers.
Ladies and gentlemen - we need to promote the professionalism of our profession - not cheapen it but letting guys like this violate probably every state rule and code of ethics!!!
You may not, but how many of these people are?
Is this OK for doctors and lawyers, but not engineers? Or is it OK for software engineers and HVAC engineers, but not structural engineers?
msquared48
Structural
Gee.....
Could this be another example of ... "You get what you pay for?"
![[ponder]](/data/assets/smilies/ponder.gif "[ponder] [ponder]")
![[banghead]](/data/assets/smilies/banghead.gif "[banghead] [banghead]")
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Could this be another example of ... "You get what you pay for?"
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
YoungTurk...it is not OK for any of the licensed engineering disciplines as those who are licensed are obligated to protect the health, safety, and (in some states) the welfare of the public. "Software Engineers" are not usually licensed and have no duty to protect the public by law, but hopefully they feel ethically bound to do so.
As a bit of a libertarian, this situation vexes me. On the one hand you have two people engaging in commerce. The one is providing technical information (right or wrong) and the other is a buyer. If the buyer wishes to get a cursory opinion regarding a beam size, why shouldn't he? If he wishes to modify his house based off of an anonymous website, we have permitting requirements that will at least forestall such ill conceived plans. In PA we have to get a permit to replace our roofs and windows and even the barbers have licenses. However, you can go to a vitamin store and get a person with unknown credentials to recommend all sorts of unpronounceable ingredients for ingestion. Why are we assumed to be stupid consumers when it comes to getting our hair cut and choosing a doctor?
On the other hand we need to protect the public welfare. We can't have some jack of all trades designing high rises and shopping malls.
As for professionalism, that is earned by the individual it is not handed to the trade because of a license.
On the other hand we need to protect the public welfare. We can't have some jack of all trades designing high rises and shopping malls.
As for professionalism, that is earned by the individual it is not handed to the trade because of a license.
I looked for the question posted by Port125 and wasn't able to find it.. maybe it was taken down? Maybe it was meant to be representative of his/her take on the questions being asked? Don't know.
Looking through the site - it appears that there are at least 2 more structure folks answering questions. One advertises that he's retired, the other with 11 years experience.
Has anybody gone through this process yet? I keep wondering/hoping there are serious disclaimers about not building anything based on the answers...
Looking through the site - it appears that there are at least 2 more structure folks answering questions. One advertises that he's retired, the other with 11 years experience.
Has anybody gone through this process yet? I keep wondering/hoping there are serious disclaimers about not building anything based on the answers...
Teguci...when you figure out the difference between a trade and a profession, I think you'll answer your own quandary.
There are times when the general public must be protected from their own ignorance and, in some cases, their own stupidity. As I'm sure you've noticed (and have probably done this yourself) the better answer to give an ignorant question (which might not appear ignorant on the surface, but is proved so by lack of supplementary consideration) is no answer.
There are times when the general public must be protected from their own ignorance and, in some cases, their own stupidity. As I'm sure you've noticed (and have probably done this yourself) the better answer to give an ignorant question (which might not appear ignorant on the surface, but is proved so by lack of supplementary consideration) is no answer.
This was a blurb in some of the answers:
"Before we continue I’d like to point out that a Professional Engineer’s standard of care typically includes a site visit to assess field conditions and get an overall understanding of the structure. This can obviously not be accomplished through the internet. The information provided here is meant for informational purposes only (general sizing and budgeting) and is based on the information provided by you. The information should be verified by a professional engineer who can visit the site to ensure that potentially important information has not been overlooked or omitted."
I think that covers the standard of care problem. Personally, I'd rather see the "expert" not go into a calculation, and just explain how that's not how the profession works (ie, asking for this stuff over the internet for $30), and instead offer a road map on how it's supposed to be accomplished. But the whole site appears to be geared towards "why pay hundreds when you can log on from the comfort of your home for a fraction of the cost."
On the flip side, I do see answers there that don't provide any sort of calculation at all, and are generalized responses like "in certain situations, one could run into a problem with that modification, some of which are A, B, and C, and regardless of the case, this type of professional should be called to have them look at it", or "the manufacturer should be contacted with this question." That's more of the road map that this should be limited to.
"Before we continue I’d like to point out that a Professional Engineer’s standard of care typically includes a site visit to assess field conditions and get an overall understanding of the structure. This can obviously not be accomplished through the internet. The information provided here is meant for informational purposes only (general sizing and budgeting) and is based on the information provided by you. The information should be verified by a professional engineer who can visit the site to ensure that potentially important information has not been overlooked or omitted."
I think that covers the standard of care problem. Personally, I'd rather see the "expert" not go into a calculation, and just explain how that's not how the profession works (ie, asking for this stuff over the internet for $30), and instead offer a road map on how it's supposed to be accomplished. But the whole site appears to be geared towards "why pay hundreds when you can log on from the comfort of your home for a fraction of the cost."
On the flip side, I do see answers there that don't provide any sort of calculation at all, and are generalized responses like "in certain situations, one could run into a problem with that modification, some of which are A, B, and C, and regardless of the case, this type of professional should be called to have them look at it", or "the manufacturer should be contacted with this question." That's more of the road map that this should be limited to.
bridgebuster
Active member
Has anyone heard from their respective licensing board? I haven't even received an acknowledgement.
bridgebuster
Active member
Ron - Perhaps we have to wait until our respective boards to convene. However, I suspect this is something most boards don't want to deal with. The information superhighway has lead us to uncharted territory, in the legal sense.
Great post. At the end of the day, those of us with a high "standard of care", will be more mindful and undoubtedly take the time to question this sort of practice when we are faced with it. Thank goodness you didn't have to deal with this going on at your work. That could be awkward and a legal mess.
These guys are likely to be the same guys who sell their signature and seal for fees half that of engineers who actually perform the work.
Although, JAE, I agree with the board's response. Legally, I doubt they can do much with those ambiguous posts. However, if they had the same attitude as law-enforcement chasing child pornography, we may be able to pressure these folks to stop.
I wonder what percentage of these 'engineers' are ignorant of their ways or knowingly violating ethics and laws.
"Structural engineering is the art of modelling materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot..."...ah...screw it, we don't know what the heck we are doing.
These guys are likely to be the same guys who sell their signature and seal for fees half that of engineers who actually perform the work.
Although, JAE, I agree with the board's response. Legally, I doubt they can do much with those ambiguous posts. However, if they had the same attitude as law-enforcement chasing child pornography, we may be able to pressure these folks to stop.
I wonder what percentage of these 'engineers' are ignorant of their ways or knowingly violating ethics and laws.
"Structural engineering is the art of modelling materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot..."...ah...screw it, we don't know what the heck we are doing.
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