Flint Municipal water 89

[moon161]

So, Flint has been MI lead poisoned and exposed to legionella bacteria because the water supply was switched from Detroit municipal to the Flint River. Since the polluted river is corrosive and iron rich, lead was leached from pipes and solder into the water of thousands of homes, and legionella bateria (legionaire's diseased) apparently thrived on the dissolved iron.

It was done to save money, it stayed that way because people who knew of the crisis sat on the information and obstructed inquiry.

http://dailycaller.com/2016/01/14/e...nation-for-months-without-telling-the-public/

http://m.democracynow.org/stories/15874

There HAS to be a (ir)responsible engineer in that chain. What are their duties, did they fail to perform? Would whistleblower action have been appropriate?

 

[SwinnyGG]

If KWA and GLWA were competitors, it would have made sense to purchase half the water from each. It seems that Flint's EM purchased 60% more water than needed from KWA in a take it or pay contract. So Flint will be not be buying water from anybody else. And Flint will be paying for water that they can not use. The 2013 water reliability study estimated water usage at 11 million gallons per day, yet the EM purchased 18 million gallons per day.

11 million gallons per day is the mean usage rate. The peak usage rate is between 14 and 16 MGD, depending on which report you trust.

Flint has a 30-year Contract with KWA, so it probably would not be a good idea to bet your farm. The 72-Inch GLWA pipeline will be mothballed. What happens when an asset sits idle? It will be decrepit by the the time the Contract is over.

Incorrect. The 72-inch GLWA supply will continue to operate at minimum until 2046. Almont (30 year contract began July 1 '15) Imlay City (30 year contract takes effect June 2016) and Lapeer (30 year contract proposed and pending) are all fed by the 72-inch line from the Imlay pumping station. There are also multiple municipalities to the west of Flint (Swartz Creek, Owosso, many others) who will continue to receive their water from that 72 inch main. Meaning that the GLWA line running through Flint will not be taken out of service.

If you did a little research, you will find data on economic development such as:

"Our biggest takeaway: there is virtually no association between economic development incentives and any measure of economic performance. We found no statistically significant association between economic development incentives per capita and average wages or incomes; none between incentives and college grads or knowledge workers; and none between incentives and the state unemployment rate. The scatter-graph above illustrates the lack of any relationship between incentives per capita and wages."

If you read all of the articles you linked to completion, instead of just stopping when you found something you liked, you would have found this, from the same article:

"companies typically select locations based on factors such as workforce, proximity to markets, and access to qualified suppliers"

Sound familiar? Like what I just said? I guess you're not the only one who can quote out of context to support an argument.


Wake up and smell the coffee. The next state over, Indiana, has similar problems. The point that was made was that SE Michigan is not unique in the economic problems that face.

I know what you were trying to say. My response is the same. This thread isn't about Indiana. It's about southeast Michigan. Doing nothing in response to a declining economy is not an option.

 

[boo1]

This started with the City of Flint's desire to switch water source, in 2006/2007
Flint city council, and mayor approved the change in March 25, 2013. (7 to 1)
Then the Flint Water department did not know how to treat the Flint River water (they only had been treating water from Detroit that was already treated) and how to test the water.
Michigan Department of Environmental Quality made errors in evaluating the cities test results and recommendations to Flint.
Synder made mistakes trusting the MDEQ staff
EPA made mistakes 6-8 months of waiting on recommendation to Michigan Department of Environmental Quality when they knew there was a lead problem.

There is enough blame for everyone involved.

 

[bimr]

11 million gallons per day is the mean usage rate. The peak usage rate is between 14 and 16 MGD, depending on which report you trust.

The Contract is shown. This is a take or pay contract. That means you buy 18 million gallons every day whether you use or don't use it. You do not pay for what you use, you pay for 18 million gallons every day.

11 million gallons per day is the mean usage rate over a year. Some days are higher and some lower.

Incorrect. The 72-inch GLWA supply will continue to operate at minimum until 2046. Almont (30 year contract began July 1 '15) Imlay City (30 year contract takes effect June 2016) and Lapeer (30 year contract proposed and pending) are all fed by the 72-inch line from the Imlay pumping station. There are also multiple municipalities to the west of Flint (Swartz Creek, Owosso, many others) who will continue to receive their water from that 72 inch main. Meaning that the GLWA line running through Flint will not be taken out of service.

The velocity must be maintained in the 72-Inch water pipeline. Otherwise, the disinfectant residual will be used up. When water is stagnant, you run into water quality problems such as stale water. You will also have pumping problems as the pumps are probably designed to operate at a higher rate. It will be difficult to operate the pipeline at low volume. Sediment will also drop out at low velocities. The authority will probably cancel the contract as it is not economical to operate in that manner.

If you read all of the articles you linked to completion, instead of just stopping when you found something you liked, you would have found this, from the same article:

"companies typically select locations based on factors such as workforce, proximity to markets, and access to qualified suppliers"

Sound familiar? Like what I just said? I guess you're not the only one who can quote out of context to support an argument.

There you go again, quoting of context. You left the first sentence out of the paragraph:

"The bigger issue is that incentives do little to alter the locational calculus of most companies. The broad body of evidence on incentives, including the Times series, finds that incentives do not actually cause companies to choose certain locations over others. Rather, companies typically select locations based on factors such as workforce, proximity to markets, and access to qualified suppliers, and then pit jurisdictions against one another to extract tax benefits and other incentives."

It is important to be able to discern the difference between a belief, a fact and an opinion.

 

[bimr]

This started with the City of Flint's desire to switch water source, in 2006/2007
Flint city council, and mayor approved the change in March 25, 2013. (7 to 1)

Actually, the Emergency Manager Ed Kurtz who was appointed by Snyder was the one who made the decision. Snyder and the Legislature also put austerity budgeting restraints on the City of Flint.

Then the Flint Water department did not know how to treat the Flint River water (they only had been treating water from Detroit that was already treated) and how to test the water.
Michigan Department of Environmental Quality made errors in evaluating the cities test results and recommendations to Flint.

The permit to change water supplies was written by, approved by, and signed off by the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality Director Dan Wyant also appointed by Snyder. The MDEQ also approved the Flint Water Treatment Operator.

Snyder made mistakes trusting the MDEQ staff EPA made mistakes 6-8 months of waiting on recommendation to Michigan Department of Environmental Quality when they knew there was a lead problem.

The water supply switch was made in April 2014 and continued until October 2015. Darnell Earley another Emergency Manager appointed by Snyder refused to switch the water supply back to Detroit, despite being approached by Detroit and Detroit waiving the reconnection fee. His successor, Jerry Ambrose, another Emergency Manager appointed by Snyder refused on January 29, 2015 to switch the water source back to Detroit, despite a request from the Flint City Council.

Snyder was aware of the problem and like Nero, did nothing. The MDEQ argued with and mislead the EPA.


There is enough blame for everyone involved.

Yes, but there were some like Snyder who was involved in all of the major decisions and appointed the other people who had major roles.

January 2016. Snyder accepts responsibility. What a difference a year makes. Last year, Snyder was talking about a presidential run with the Michigan "Miracle". Now people pity the fool.

http://www.freep.com/pages/interactives/flint-water-crisis-timeline/

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/10/how_the_flint_water_crisis_eme.html#28

 

[SwinnyGG]

The velocity must be maintained in the 72-Inch water pipeline. Otherwise, the disinfectant residual will be used up. When water is stagnant, you run into water quality problems such as stale water. You will also have pumping problems as the pumps are probably designed to operate at a higher rate. It will be difficult to operate the pipeline at low volume. Sediment will also drop out at low velocities. The authority will probably cancel the contract as it is not economical to operate in that manner.

That's all well and good.

The fact remains, the 72-inch main is not going out of service.

There you go again, quoting of context.

So.. did you read the post that you called me out on for quoting out of context? Because it contains this: "I guess you're not the only one who can quote out of context to support an argument"

Hint: I know I'm quoting out of context. That's the difference between us.

You keep making an argument against economic incentives, a topic I never brought up.

 

[boo1]

Michigan Official Tried to Manipulate Lead Tests Nearly Eight Years Ago

http://ecowatch.com/2016/04/28/manipulate-lead-tests/

 

[boo1]

interesting

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...lint-water-plant-engineering-report/83815148/

 

[bimr]

"Why would it be appropriate for a several-hundred-million-dollar pipeline to be developed in a region swimming in (water) capacity and populated by two financially distressed cities?" said task force member Eric Rothstein, referring to the available Detroit water system that had supplied Flint for almost 50 years. "It all gives me a tremendously uneasy feeling."

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/articl...crisis-questions-grow-over-quest-for-pipeline

 

[SwinnyGG]

"Why would it be appropriate for a several-hundred-million-dollar pipeline to be developed in a region swimming in (water) capacity and populated by two financially distressed cities?" said task force member Eric Rothstein, referring to the available Detroit water system that had supplied Flint for almost 50 years. "It all gives me a tremendously uneasy feeling."

This has been covered ad nauseum.

 

[bimr]

Did you also cover the "sweetheart" bond issue?

"The City of Flint's financial condition was so dire in 2014 that it threatened the ability of the Karegnondi Water Authority to issue bonds and start construction on a new pipeline to Lake Huron. But the project was rescued through what was described as a "sweetheart" state environmental order pushed by KWA bond attorneys, records show."

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...id-state-give-flint-break-its-water/84238120/

 

[SwinnyGG]

What are you trying to say, that the City needed to do some political maneuvering to get the bonds issued?

So... why would that be a surprise?

 

[JohnRBaker]

Did you see where the state is going to pay the water bills for the residents of Flint for the next month or so as they are encouraging people to run all their taps for as long as 15 minutes or so each day in an attempt to flush out any remaining lead from the system as the city tries to get back to where the water is no longer leaching lead from the older pipes still in the network.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[SwinnyGG]

Is there a link stating that? Haven't heard that and a quick search doesn't bring anything up.

If that is actually a valid strategy to mitigate lead exposure to the residents, it seems like a reasonable action to take.

In other news, Glasgow accepted a plea deal to the misdemeanor charge of neglect of duty with the felony tampering charge dismissed:

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...worker-gets-plea-deal-criminal-case/83928004/

 

[JohnRBaker]

I should have posted a link to substantiate my comment but I had heard it from a news item while driving and posted the item above when I got home but failed to do a search first.

Anyway, I've did a search just now and here's an item that confirms what I heard on the radio:

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2016/05/gov_snyder_says_state_will_cov.html

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[bimr]

What a surprise, there are no cost savings with the KWA water system.

"Flint water rates could double without changes to system, state treasurer says"

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2016/05/flint_water_rates_could_double.html

 

[SwinnyGG]

What a surprise, you're cherry picking from your links to suit your argument.

Re-read your link, and take note of the part about how this did not include any analysis of the effect the KWA will have on the system.

 

[bimr]

Posting the title of an article is cherry picking? You have to have a better argument than that. The same discussion is in a second news source.

How about this quote (which includes discussion of the KWA water):

"The estimates highlight continued concern over Flint water rates despite the city’s expected switch to the Karegnondi Water Authority, which it joined with state approval in hopes of gaining more control over long-term costs."

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...crisis/2016/05/13/flint-water-bills/84327934/

State's interest in pushing KWA project needs explanation:

http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/columnists/nancy-kaffer/2016/05/15/flint-water-crisis/84296376/

The State's role in the DWSD, the Detroit Bankruptcy and pressure from the wealthy counties to convert DWSD into a regional authority using Flint's withdrawal to financially break it was a killer and that rests on Snyder.

Thomas Jefferson is credited with saying “The government you elect is government you deserve.” Paraphrased, as a Michigan resident you will be paying for most of the cost of the corruption and screw-ups through increased taxes.

 

[SwinnyGG]

Yes, it's cherry picking because the headline is ambiguous, and doesn't relate the entire story.

The point of the article is that Flint needs to upgrade city infrastructure, which is a problem regardless of water source.

Some direct quotes:

"Khouri said leaders will need to find ways to reduce operating costs, find low- to no-cost financing for infrastructure upgrades and find a cost-effective source of water moving forward to curb the cost increases"

"The study included cost comparisons to other municipal water systems. The comparison showed that Flint residents are often required to pay to maintain more infrastructure and water loss than customers on other municipal systems"

"Only 50 to 60 percent of the water purchased by Flint is actually billed to the customers for use. The other systems included in the study had billing rates closer to 90 percent.

Unbilled water includes those resources used in processes such as hydrant flushing. It also includes water loss from leakage and theft."

"He added that Flint also transfers more money from its water fund – roughly 17 percent – to other city funds than other municipal systems. The average municipal system only transfers about 7 percent"

"The task force is expected to present an evaluation of water source of backup options for the city, including a study of the Karegnondi Water Authority and the Great Lakes Water Authority. No timetable has been set for that presentation. "

The KWA is the potential cost-effective source for water. The infrastructure upgrades and their effect on water bills have NOTHING to do with the KWA.

You certainly know enough to know that. Which means you're being obtuse about trashing the KWA, or you're not fully reading and comprehending the articles you link. It's one of the two.

 

[bimr]

Yes, it's cherry picking because the headline is ambiguous, and doesn't relate the entire story.

The report is not published and some preliminary comments were made, so you are responding to the notes from reporters. Better to wait for the facts to be presented before making comments.

The KWA is the potential cost-effective source for water. The infrastructure upgrades and their effect on water bills have NOTHING to do with the KWA.


Except for the fact that Flint only needs an average of 9 MGD of water (99,000 people x 90 gal per capita per day), yet the EM bought 18 MGD from the KWA in a take-or-pay contract.

find low- to no-cost financing for infrastructure upgrades

Most states are offering 1% loans with principle forgiveness as well for water projects through the Environmental State Revolving Funds. Yet KWA is charging full price for the project capital costs plus 5% for the bonds.

That doesn't sound like best deal for the customers of the KWA.

Unbilled water includes those resources used in processes such as hydrant flushing. It also includes water loss from leakage and theft."


It would be unusual for a state agency like the MDEQ to approve a project (like the KWA project) with such leakage. In Illinois, the IEPA will not approve a withdrawal from Lake Michigan unless the unaccounted water was less than 8%.

 

[SwinnyGG]

The report is not published and some preliminary comments were made, so you are responding to the notes from reporters. Better to wait for the facts to be presented before making comments.

So maybe you shouldn't have linked the article? It's great how the ambiguous headline is a point of argument for you until I call you out, and then it suddenly becomes meaningless without further information.

Except for the fact that Flint only needs an average of 9 MGD of water (99,000 people x 90 gal per capita per day), yet the EM bought 18 MGD from the KWA in a take-or-pay contract.

Which.... still has nothing to do with upgrades that are necessary to infrastructure that is wholly within and wholly owned by the City of Flint.

Most states are offering 1% loans with principle forgiveness as well for water projects through the Environmental State Revolving Funds. Yet KWA is charging full price for the project capital costs plus 5% for the bonds.

That doesn't sound like best deal for the customers of the KWA.

Flint's KWA share well exceeded the single-project grant cap for the CWSRF (and all of the various other similar funds) for 2014. Borrowing from the revolving fund was not an option.

It would be unusual for a state agency like the MDEQ to approve a project (like the KWA project) with such leakage. In Illinois, the IEPA will not approve a withdrawal from Lake Michigan unless the unaccounted water was less than 8%.

The quoted leakage rate is for infrastructure within the City of Flint, not for the KWA project. Seriously... they're separate issues. You can't push one set of problems on the other.