Flint Municipal water 89

[moon161]

So, Flint has been MI lead poisoned and exposed to legionella bacteria because the water supply was switched from Detroit municipal to the Flint River. Since the polluted river is corrosive and iron rich, lead was leached from pipes and solder into the water of thousands of homes, and legionella bateria (legionaire's diseased) apparently thrived on the dissolved iron.

It was done to save money, it stayed that way because people who knew of the crisis sat on the information and obstructed inquiry.

http://dailycaller.com/2016/01/14/e...nation-for-months-without-telling-the-public/

http://m.democracynow.org/stories/15874

There HAS to be a (ir)responsible engineer in that chain. What are their duties, did they fail to perform? Would whistleblower action have been appropriate?

 

[cranky108]

My point is calling Flint an engineering issue is incorrect. It may better be called a management issue, and to lay the blame of the managers who made bad decisions, and should have known better.

No one knows it all, but to not seek the advise of the professionals is not the fault of the professionals.

To be blamed for bad management was not why I became an engineer. Is that why you became an engineer?

Pass the failures on, and keep the credit for success is not a sign of a good manager.

 

[SwinnyGG]

"My point is calling Flint an engineering issue is incorrect. It may better be called a management issue, and to lay the blame of the managers who made bad decisions, and should have known better.

No one knows it all, but to not seek the advise of the professionals is not the fault of the professionals.

To be blamed for bad management was not why I became an engineer. Is that why you became an engineer?

Pass the failures on, and keep the credit for success is not a sign of a good manager."

In case it wasn't clear, what I am saying agrees with this, if not quite completely.

If we're counting technical staff managing the water system as 'engineers' (which it seems we are even though they aren't degreed/titled as such) than this WAS an engineering failure in part. I deal with safety issues on a daily basis, and I feel that in order for my company to build safe systems, it is absolutely vital to my role that I understand the rules, and that I do not allow them to be circumvented.

In this case, rules were circumvented because of political or management pressure from on high- but part of being a good engineer is knowing that sometimes, you have to take a stand. The law says so.

 

[bimr]

jgKRI, you seem to be blaming the little guy at the bottom for not following the rules when the root cause of the problem is due to the poor policy decisions that were made by the people at the top levels of government.

By the way, in government, the management decisions are the responsibility of the executive branch where the governor is responsible for overall management of the government. Since your are calling this partly a management issue, does this mean that you are now ready to sign the recall petition?

Regarding: In this case, rules where circumvented because of political or management pressure from on high- but part of being a good engineer is knowing that sometimes, you have to take a stand. The law says so.

Underfunding the MDEQ and the City of Flint is not a political pressure or a management pressure, it is a conscious (nonsensical) decision that was made by the Governor and the legislature. There is no one else to blame for this. The unqualified water treatment operator at the bottom of the food chain does not fund the government.

Regarding: If we're counting technical staff managing the water system as 'engineers' (which it seems we are even though they aren't degreed/titled as such) than this WAS an engineering failure in part. I deal with safety issues on a daily basis, and I feel that in order for my company to build safe systems, it is absolutely vital to my role that I understand the rules, and that I do not allow them to be circumvented.

Water treatment operators are no more a technical staff than a bus driver. Water treatment plant operators generally consist of people with a high school education who have decided to make a career out of operations. These positions are blue collar factory worker type jobs. Water treatment operators are trained to operate equipment in accordance with instructions provided by engineers and the equipment manufacturers. Water treatment operators in general do not possess the education and background to make policy decisions. Nor are water treatment operators qualified to make decisions as to the type of water treatment equipment that is used nor the type of water treatment process that is used. I don't think that Mr. Glasgow would even claim to be an engineer as you suggest.

I would offer that the hiring and employment of unqualified people by the City of Flint as well as the failure to staff at adequate levels is due to underfunding. The failure to staff the MDEQ is due to underfunding.

The root cause of this fiasco is underfunding of government. If the MDEQ had been adequately funded, the poor policy decision made by the Governor to hire an entrepreneurship advocate as the MDEQ Director would not have been catastrophic. If the City of Flint had been adequately funded, the poor policy decision by the Governor to hire an Emergency Manager to cut additional costs from the Flint government would never have been made. If the City of Flint had been funded properly, the City of Flint would have hired a qualified water treatment operator.

An engineering failure is when a design is inadequate for the intended purpose. Policy decisions made by the governor and state legislature are not an engineering design and can not be considered as an engineering failure.

 

[cranky108]

I hear that the state AG is looking at pressing charges.

I would also argue that under-funding maybe required because of the political requirements being placed on the government by the people. That said, many other departments in other state governments are also likely under-funded. However, we don't see them in the headlines. The reasons maybe they are more efficient, or have other work that is not being completed.
The point is under-funding is a managers issue, not a reason to skip required work. Required work maybe a perspective issue, like reducing janitor services, or window washing.

The fact is managers in government agencies either need to suck it up, or make a political statement. Those without a backbone will never make a political statement.

The other issue here is "we don't like city of Detroit", is not a reason to change water sources. Was there an economic reason, or was it a managers bad attitude?

 

[SwinnyGG]

I think my previous post makes it pretty clear that I blame everyone involved.

The only way this issue happens is if there are failures at the local, regional, state, AND federal oversight levels.

If you want to say that the water treatment plant staff aren't engineers, I'm not going to disagree. Applying that title to them is a stretch.

There were, however, engineers in the chain, and the result was not an acceptable one. Why Mike Prysby isn't getting more attention on this, I don't know.

 

[bimr]

Regarding "The other issue here is "we don't like city of Detroit", is not a reason to change water sources. Was there an economic reason, or was it a managers bad attitude?"

That had to do with another political scam as well and being a huge mistake. See the post on 17 Feb 16 05:12. The people involved with that decision should also face criminal charges.

If not already bankrupt, the decision to change water sources would have bankrupted Flint.

Details about the KWA fiasco:

http://voiceofdetroit.net/2016/02/1...or-profit-the-karegnondi-water-authority-kwa/

Reading the Voice article, it appears the Flint politicians and Genesee County Commissioner were together is starting this mess.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...a-chief-helped-fbi-corruption-case/79808074/.

Genesee County Drain Commissioner is the CEO of the KWA

Unfortunately, there appears to be a large number of public officials in the State of Michigan who are inept or corrupt.

 

[bimr]

The first charges are filed. As posted previously, the municipal water industry is very highly regulated which makes it easy to find misconduct. One would think that misconduct in office would reach up to the Governors office as well.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...employee-charged-flint-water-crisis/83272760/

 

[SwinnyGG]

"The other issue here is "we don't like city of Detroit", is not a reason to change water sources. Was there an economic reason, or was it a managers bad attitude?"

For approximately the last 50 years Lapeer, Genesee, and Sanilac county municipalities have purchased water from the City of Detroit. During that time these areas paid relatively high costs for their water. The Karegnondi Water Authority was formed by those counties to build a new system pulling water from Lake Huron, so that they would own their own source and see lower costs long term.

The motivation was cost reduction, pure and simple. 'We don't like the City of Detroit' is not a sentiment that's common as far as I can tell. Most of the economy of southeast Michigan, which includes these counties, is a direct result of business conducted in Detroit. This isn't a situation where one part of the state detests another part and makes political decisions as a result.

The KWA plan is still moving forward. They say they will have the ability to deliver lake water to Flint and the other municipalities by July of 2016. We'll see if they make it.

 

[JohnRBaker]

And how was it that the people who made the decision to switch from the Detroit-based system didn't simply wait the 2 years or so that it was going to take to get the new system up and running? Did they really think that NOT waiting was going to help save them that much money?

John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[bimr]

"Once additional costs and risks are factored in, the rates paid by Flint’s water customers will be substantially higher than current rates with the DWSD system."

For various reasons, municipal projects end up costing substantially more than originally estimated.

 

[boo1]

How does LAN engineering play into the Flint's water departments mistakes?
$3.8m in contracts for Flint water department design and service?

 

[SwinnyGG]

"And how was it that the people who made the decision to switch from the Detroit-based system didn't simply wait the 2 years or so that it was going to take to get the new system up and running? Did they really think that NOT waiting was going to help save them that much money?"

Initially, their plan WAS to remain on DWSD water until Karagnondi was ready.

Once the KWA gained traction, DWSD sent the City of Flint a termination notice- that one year from the date the notice was sent, April of 2013 if I'm remembering correctly, the DSWD would no longer provide their water. This began a mad scramble to find an alternate source to bridge the gap between April of '13 and the KWA startup date.

DWSD and City of Flint officials met multiple times, but Flint was never happy with the terms proposed by DWSD- namely that DWSD would not accept a structured rate increase schedule- they wanted the ability to charge the City of Flint whatever they wanted, without tying it to inflation of the market or whatever. It is true (as someone, either John or Bimr I think already stated) that DWSD came back to the table with an offer that consisted of a ~40% rate cut- but this cut was guaranteed for one year only. After the first year of the deal, there was no further provision for price control.

I'm not advocating in favor of the KWA- it just doesn't appear to me that the KWA was a crooked deal. Flint needed to do something about controlling water costs, and the KWA is what they and surrounding communities decided on.

 

[boo1]

Some history of KWA and Detroit's water source

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karegnondi_Water_Authority

Looks like it was all about money.

 

[bimr]

Any time that a business has a monoply situation, the price of the product will be whatever the market will bear.

I would suspect that Flint will be in the same situation with KWA in the future as with Detroit. Flint is just changing the poison.

It is important to note that the MDEQ approves all of these arrangements. The MDEQ could have pressured any of these parties to make a better deal. All it would have taken is a phone call from the governor to resolve the water war.

 

[bimr]

Looks like it was all about money (and well paid positions on the authority for various politicians).

 

[bimr]

"The officials are facing multiple felonies and misdemeanors accusing them of misconduct, tampering with evidence, and “willfully” misleading federal officials, more than six months after Governor Rick Snyder of Michigan admitted his administration gravely misunderstood the extent of a lead contamination problem in Flint."

"According to a complaint issued on Wednesday, Busch and Prysby “willfully and knowingly” misled federal officials from the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the Genesee County health department between February 2015 and November 2015. The misconduct in office charges, the complaint stated, mean officials violated their “duty to provide clean and safe drinking water” to residents in the county."

The Michigan Attorney General is quoted as saying that the EPA was willfully mislead.

Wow, does that change your opinion of the EPA, jgKRI?

 

[JohnRBaker]

If nothing else, this makes it pretty much an all-Michigan issue. While I had some concerns about the Republican Attorney General being responsible for this investigation, I've been told that the people he brought in from the outside to actually conduct the investigations and to formulate the charges, that these were highly reputable people with impeccable credentials. As there are other investigations underway, it's going to take awhile before all of the responsible parties have been identified and I suspect that it may eventually reach higher than just the three relatively low-level individuals named in today's indictments.

John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[QualityTime]

Draw the chart that shows the link for the chain of command of how the decision came down. This visual will put the bulls eyes squarely on someone's forehead.

Fire them all and put them all into prison. Bet you they will all be singing. I doubt very much anyone will be taking one for the gipper

 

[SwinnyGG]

"Any time that a business has a monoply situation, the price of the product will be whatever the market will bear.

I would suspect that Flint will be in the same situation with KWA in the future as with Detroit. Flint is just changing the poison.

It is important to note that the MDEQ approves all of these arrangements. The MDEQ could have pressured any of these parties to make a better deal. All it would have taken is a phone call from the governor to resolve the water war."

The City of Flint is a member of the KWA board, not just a customer, meaning they have input on things like rate adjustments. They did NOT have a seat on the DWSD (or the GLWA) board and were denied board seats when they asked for them.


Looks like it was all about money (and well paid positions on the authority for various politicians).

The KWA financials are externally audited and publicly available. You'd be well served to read them before you make accusations like that. I have read them- and while I'm not an expert on the operation of a water plant, I DO deal with financial planning on this scale. From what is publicly available, the KWA to this point seems to be well run. The project is slightly behind schedule but appears to be coming in under budget, and is following the bond repayment schedule exactly.

Is it possible there were ulterior (financial) motives? Of course it's possible. I can't crawl into Jeff Wright's brain and hear his thoughts. All I can do is read the financials and form an opinion.

"The officials are facing multiple felonies and misdemeanors accusing them of misconduct, tampering with evidence, and “willfully” misleading federal officials, more than six months after Governor Rick Snyder of Michigan admitted his administration gravely misunderstood the extent of a lead contamination problem in Flint."

"According to a complaint issued on Wednesday, Busch and Prysby “willfully and knowingly” misled federal officials from the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the Genesee County health department between February 2015 and November 2015. The misconduct in office charges, the complaint stated, mean officials violated their “duty to provide clean and safe drinking water” to residents in the county."

The Michigan Attorney General is quoted as saying that the EPA was willfully mislead.

Wow, does that change your opinion of the EPA, jgKRI?"

Considering that the EPA knew about this issue well before February 2015, no, it does not. It is incontrovertible that they had a chance to act, and instead withheld that information from public view.

The MDEQ and local water management staff are directly responsible for the creation of the problem, but the EPA is at least partly responsible for allowing it to continue for as long as it did- had they released what they knew when they knew it, the process of fixing the problem would have started much earlier, and lead exposure of the Flint population would have been significantly reduced. I don't understand how anyone could think that they are completely without blame.

 

[bimr]

Regarding: "The City of Flint is a member of the KWA board, not just a customer, meaning they have input on things like rate adjustments. They did NOT have a seat on the DWSD (or the GLWA) board and were denied board seats when they asked for them."

A seat on the board is OK, but having the majority voting rights (+51%) is much more important and relevant. Flint is a minority on the KWA board.

What do you think will happen when Flint does not have the money to pay the water bill?

Public authorities operate with a tremendous amount of autonomy, little transparency, incur debt without voter approval, and remain largely unknown and unrecognized entities. Good luck with that.

The State of Michigan report that was prepared by an independent consultant states:

1. The KWA water will cost at least 20% more than Detroit water;
2. Requires Flint to upgrade the Flint water treatment plant at additional expense to process the KWA water;
3. Doesn't appear that the work on the Flint water treatment plant has even started;
4. Now that Mr. Glasgow will be in jail, Flint will have to find new water treatment plant operators;
5. Pay for excess water because the old Flint distribution system is leaking excessively;
6. Have no backup water supply since KWA has no standby generators (major risk);
7. Have a single source of water supply because Detroit water is gone as well as Flint River Supply is repurposed;
8. Pay for 30% of the pipeline cost while other communities on KWA board pay nothing.

What financials are you looking at? Some crystal ball?

The Fourth Estate is supposed to be the muckrackers, not the EPA.

OK, so the EPA is supposed to be responsible for not making the lying, misleading, inept, fraudulent MDEQ and Flint do their job. But later, the State of Michigan says the EPA has no legal authority.

"Michigan Department of Environmental Quality Director Keith Creagh, in a Friday letter to EPA Administrator Gina McCarthy, disputed whether the EPA “has the legal authority” to require a state to take the actions outlined in the order, saying the state would share those concerns by letter or in person."

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...stions-legality-epa-directive-flint/79202618/