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Flint Municipal water 89

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moon161

moon161

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So, Flint has been MI lead poisoned and exposed to legionella bacteria because the water supply was switched from Detroit municipal to the Flint River. Since the polluted river is corrosive and iron rich, lead was leached from pipes and solder into the water of thousands of homes, and legionella bateria (legionaire's diseased) apparently thrived on the dissolved iron.

It was done to save money, it stayed that way because people who knew of the crisis sat on the information and obstructed inquiry.



There HAS to be a (ir)responsible engineer in that chain. What are their duties, did they fail to perform? Would whistleblower action have been appropriate?
 
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So who is the finger pointing at today? Does it really matter who the political finger pointing at, when the actual decision makers might escape with no adverse effects?

Yes the government is there to protect us, but who is protecting us from the government, and there bad decisions? The same thing can happen in other places, and the cause is the people don't take the time to get involved, ask questions, read water quality reports.

I assume water quality reports are required, as everywhere I've lived they have been required.
 
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The guilty finger is obviously pointing to the politicians that are in charge of the State of Michigan.


Instead of fixing the problem, the Michigan politicians want to question the legality of the EPA directive to the MDEQ to fix the problem:


Governor Snyder who obviously did not learn his lesson when he previously appointed the President of the kitty litter foundation to head the MDEQ, has appointed another person with zero environmental experience to replace him. Did Snyder learn anything from this fiasco?

Michigan Department of Environmental Quality Director Keith Creagh.



All of the water data and reports are available on Flint's website:

 
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It looks like Snyder replaced an ex-lobbyist with an ex-public relations person. What could be better than that?

However, I may have to give the new guy the benefit of the doubt as he's an alum from my old alma mater [smarty]

John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 
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Yes, I suspect that the 'public officials' in that photo showing them celebrating the switch-over to the Flint River, by offering a toast WITH water FROM the Flint River, would just as soon forget that they ever saw that photo.

As a wise man once said; "Karma can be a real bitch."

John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 
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"Responsibility is not a zero-sum game."

I like this idea. I'm going to think about it for a while.
 
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Same thing DuPont is struggling with, C8. Perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA), also known as C8 and perfluorooctanoate, is a synthetic perfluorinated carboxylic acid and fluorosurfactant. DuPont has released this persistent pollutant on the entire world.

 
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Oh my, I lived in Troilet Troy, NY for a year or so, also near GE's Waterford factory/superfund site. A stone's throw from Hoosic falls.
 
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That's a great theory, but what does it have to do with not putting anti-corrosion materials in the water?
I heard, and please correct me if it's wrong, but that anti-corrosion additives were required by law.

And don't expect the EPA to do anything except to spill mine water into the rivers like they did in Colorado.
 
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cranky108,

Your online handle says it all.

Anti-corrosion materials are not required. However, water shall be stabilized as in the attachment.

The orthophosphate chemical that has been talked about in the news is not the best approach to stabilization and is no longer the best approach.

Regarding the Colorado Gold King mine, the problem predates the EPA. If you want a balanced article on the Colorado mines, review the article. The Gold King Mine water was headed for the Animas River, anyway:

 
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JohnRBaker,

The bigger can of worms is the decision by the Genesee County officials to create their own water agency, which appears to be a boondoggle.

ftp://cityofswartzcreek.org/2010%20Full%20Council%20Packets/2010-May-24%20Mtg,%20Budget%20-%20Karegnondi%20Report/May%2024%20Mtg,%20Karegnondi%20Water%20Line%20Engineering%20Study.pdf


Total failure of government, starting at the top.
 
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Those are Democrats, just in case you're keeping score at home.
 
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Having lived in Michigan until I was 33 and then again for 17 months back in the mid-80's, there has always been a sort anti-Detroit attitude in the rest of the state, sort of like the L.A. versus the rest of California out here. I suspect that some of the motivation for the so-called Genesee County water agency was simply to allow them to say that they didn't need to depend on Detroit for their water. Anyone who has actually spent time in Michigan knows that there's water virtually everywhere (they claim that Michigan is the hardest state to die of thirst in since no matter where you are, walking in any direction, you'll encounter some sort of open water, good enough to at least sustain life, within two miles or less) so thinking that you have to have it piped in from 70 miles away would grate on many people's sensibilities. And if you don't believe me about the anti-Detorit 'paranoia', just check-out the city of Eastpointe and how it came by it's current name (the Wiki article says it all).

John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 
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A good, seemingly nonbiased summary from the 538 site, with a focus on what mistakes (or deliberate wrongdoing) occurred after the switch to Flint River water was made, and elevated lead levels started showing up in water samples and blood tests:


One of my takeaways from this sad situation is that it has reminded me to further consider the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law, in situations I may encounter. It certainly seems like Michigan state officials were doing everything they could to barely achieve compliance with the “letter of the law”, while disregarding the spirit of the law. Read the 538 story. It seems the state tossed out two of the water samples because they were not in compliance with sampling protocol. Doing so allowed them to just barely claim compliance with the lead action limit standard (though there were other aspects of their sampling plan that were flawed, which certainly should have called into question the validity of the overall results).

I’m angered when I think about the state’s response to the pediatrician who presented her Flint data on rising lead levels in area children (also described in the story). It seems the state’s response was to attack her credibility and downplay / blow off her findings. They should have been thanking her for raising another red flag.

Two Michigan MDEQ officials have been suspended. Their names were initially withheld, though various news stories have given their names in the last day.

The engineering firm that designed the Flint water treatment plant upgrades was Lockwood Andrews Newnam, a division of Leo A Daly. At least one news story I saw included a link to pdfs of the City permit applications filed with the MDEQ.

I’m still baffled by why there was apparently no corrosion control program put in place when the switch to river water was made. Orthophosphates are commonly used, though some on this forum have pointed out that they are not the perfect solution, and we could discuss opinions about what the best approach to corrosion control would be. It just seems, from what we have heard so far, that there was no corrosion control implemented. One of the suspended MDEQ officials is on record as telling EPA (in one of the released emails) that Flint had implemented a corrosion control program. He was either lying, or being given incorrect information by either the City or by people at MDEQ giving him information.

If I was the design engineer, for my own selfish reasons, I would be hoping that my design report or basis of design included a recommendation to use corrosion control, and I could provide evidence that my recommendation was later overruled by my client or regulators.
 
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HEHurst, it is nice to see a post that does not point at political parties. People make bad decisions and all political parties include people.

Government also includes people, and we should be pointing out bad government so to hold the people in government accountable.

There are plenty of things we can hold up to show the short falls of the EPA, and we should. Including not acting when they should.
I am on the EPA mainly because they try to show themselves as being the center of importance.

I do know the Gold Mine was an issue that started decades ago, but it is now in the hands of the EPA.



 
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HEHurst. Don't forget the operator of the water treatment plant. It is required by law to have a person in responsible charge of a water treatment plant. The operator is not just responsible for the spirit of the law. The operator is the hands on person in charge. The operator accepts responsibility by signing and certifying documents.


From the linkedin resume, it does not appear that the operator had the necessary qualifications and experience to operate a treatment plant. No previous treatment plant experience is listed.

The operator of the Flint treatment plant is the first person that is responsible for this mess. All of the laws and regulations are already in place to prevent the problem in the first place. The enforcement by MDEQ is just lacking:

"(p) "Operator in charge" means a certified operator who is designated by the owner of a public water supply as the responsible individual in overall charge of a waterworks system, or portion of a waterworks system, who makes decisions regarding the daily operational activities of the system that will directly impact the quality or quantity of drinking water."

"The department shall review and approve the addition of a new source or long-term change in treatment before it is implemented by the water supply. Examples of long-term treatment changes include the addition of a new treatment process or modification of an existing treatment process. Examples of modifications include switching secondary disinfectants, switching coagulants (for example, alum to ferric chloride), and switching corrosion inhibitor products (for example, orthophosphate to blended phosphate). Long- term changes can include dose changes to existing chemicals if the supply is planning long-term changes to its finished water pH or residual inhibitor concentration. Long-term treatment changes would not include chemical dose fluctuations associated with daily raw water quality changes."

 
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