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- #41
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
Another example would be that if the Right really wants to outlaw abortion than they must also work to do away with capital punishment. If one life is sacred then ALL lives are sacred. You can't have it both ways.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
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Irvine, CA
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The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
This might surprise some of you, but I am not a Republican. Last election, I looked at the platform of the Democratic Party and hated most of it. Then I looked at the platform of the Republican Party and hated most of it. Finally I looked at the platform of the Libertarian Party and it had all the stuff I didn't hate in the other two, so after nearly 40 years as a Republican, I changed my party affiliation to Libertarian, and voted for Trump.
I think that the only way the country solves its polarization problems (and gets on to the real issues of governance) is to add a viable third pole. When the senate is 43 or fewer Republicans, 43 or fewer Democrats and 14 or more Libertarians then Compromise becomes a way of life instead of a profanity. With compromise we get congressional actions that are by necessity closer to the huge majority of Americans who abhor the fringes. Both of the traditional parties are moving farther and farther into the fringes every day, earning their 8% approval rating, that is about the population of the fringes.
[bold]David Simpson, PE[/bold]
MuleShoe Engineering
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
I think that the only way the country solves its polarization problems (and gets on to the real issues of governance) is to add a viable third pole. When the senate is 43 or fewer Republicans, 43 or fewer Democrats and 14 or more Libertarians then Compromise becomes a way of life instead of a profanity. With compromise we get congressional actions that are by necessity closer to the huge majority of Americans who abhor the fringes. Both of the traditional parties are moving farther and farther into the fringes every day, earning their 8% approval rating, that is about the population of the fringes.
[bold]David Simpson, PE[/bold]
MuleShoe Engineering
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
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- #44
My experience with Libertarians has not been good... they seem to be slightly right of fascists. If they have a social conscience and when they depart this world, it is preferably better, but, definitely not any worse than when they came into it, I can see their appeal. Most fall down on these two requirements.
They seem to have the same zeal as fundamentalist Christians and Muslims.
Dik
They seem to have the same zeal as fundamentalist Christians and Muslims.
Dik
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
I once heard someone, I'm sure it was somewhat intend to be humorous, describing a Libertarian as simply a Republican who wants to legalize pot and prostitution.
That being said, I'd be a little concerned about promoting a society based on the principles ascribed to Libertarianism as I think you will find that this has never proven successful. I know that many people, including some prominent Republicans, such as the current Speaker of the House, Paul Ryan, are ardent fans of Ayn Rand, who's generally considered to be the first person to articulate what would someday become the Libertarian philosophy. This has always struck me as odd that there are modern day Republicans who seem to show so much respect for a Russian immigrant who was an avowed atheist.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
That being said, I'd be a little concerned about promoting a society based on the principles ascribed to Libertarianism as I think you will find that this has never proven successful. I know that many people, including some prominent Republicans, such as the current Speaker of the House, Paul Ryan, are ardent fans of Ayn Rand, who's generally considered to be the first person to articulate what would someday become the Libertarian philosophy. This has always struck me as odd that there are modern day Republicans who seem to show so much respect for a Russian immigrant who was an avowed atheist.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
There are certainly aspects of neo-libertarianism that are somewhat appealing, but I think that modern libertarianism has attempted to put itself on a 3rd pole to distinguish itself from the two other parties. This, essentially, makes them the extreme of both parties, although the current crop of libertarianists are more aligned with the Republicans, particularly in the quest to eliminate Social Security and Medicare.
I don't really see them as a party of compromise. What's needed is a centrist party that appeals to the compassionate conservative and the fiscally conservative liberal.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
I don't really see them as a party of compromise. What's needed is a centrist party that appeals to the compassionate conservative and the fiscally conservative liberal.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
None of these minor party ideas will make much difference in the US system. They have a big influence in systems like that in Australia, and they are not constructive, just cogs in the wheel.
One guy in the Australian Senate was elected with 19 votes. You don't want this system.
One guy in the Australian Senate was elected with 19 votes. You don't want this system.
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- #48
What I was looking for was a party whose principles aligned with the Constitution (i.e., federal government strictly limited to those few things that that the Constitution allows). I believe very strongly that the Federal Government has no appropriate role in education, "social safety net" (whatever that means, definitions seem to be slippery), health care beyond regulating interstate commerce, and, yes, mind altering drugs and prostitution. These are things that should rest with individuals, communities, counties, and as a last resort states. All federal lands (and their mineral rights) should revert to the states/counties beyond that minor acreage committed to military bases and national monuments. The federal government and state governments need to find a way to transition Social Security and Medicare to the states.
All of these issues are either implicit or explicit in the Libertarian platform. None of these issues are even hinted at in the mainstream party platforms (in fact the Democrats want to vastly extend the social safety net and provide "free" college, my God). If the Libertarians (or Constitionilists, or Green Party) are too radical for prime time, then their presence in Congress might just force the mainstream parties towards the middle or in some damn direction towards the needs of the country rather than the wishes of the party.
Big government attracts especially talented thieves, and our huge government has attracted some of the best in the world (probably second to the European Union, but not by much). If we can get the point where a sum is "trivial" into the millions instead of the hundreds of billions then we would drive a lot of those thieves to the private sector or maybe into some productive activity.
And yes, JohnRBaker, many people who believe the way I do had a strong dose of Ayn Rand in our early lives. I find it despicable that you would say
[bold]David Simpson, PE[/bold]
MuleShoe Engineering
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
All of these issues are either implicit or explicit in the Libertarian platform. None of these issues are even hinted at in the mainstream party platforms (in fact the Democrats want to vastly extend the social safety net and provide "free" college, my God). If the Libertarians (or Constitionilists, or Green Party) are too radical for prime time, then their presence in Congress might just force the mainstream parties towards the middle or in some damn direction towards the needs of the country rather than the wishes of the party.
Big government attracts especially talented thieves, and our huge government has attracted some of the best in the world (probably second to the European Union, but not by much). If we can get the point where a sum is "trivial" into the millions instead of the hundreds of billions then we would drive a lot of those thieves to the private sector or maybe into some productive activity.
And yes, JohnRBaker, many people who believe the way I do had a strong dose of Ayn Rand in our early lives. I find it despicable that you would say
This is a nation of immigrants and the way a person expresses their beliefs should not be a consideration in looking at their ideas. "Belief" is something that can only exist within an individual, and your beliefs or Ayn Rand's beliefs are simply none of my concern. Do you really presume to denigrate a philosophical, moral, or religious system based on irrelevancies?JohnRBaker said:
[bold]David Simpson, PE[/bold]
MuleShoe Engineering
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
Have you looked at the Republican platform recently as it pertains to THEIR definition of 'religious freedom'? You mention the Constitution but I suspect that many people on the Right would think you were lying if you told them that the word God does not appear anywhere in the Constitution and that the ONLY time religion is even mentioned, it's to declare that it plays NO role in the government nor as to the qualifications of our leaders and those who serve in government.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
JohnRBaker,
And your point is? I certainly do not speak for "the right" any more than you speak for "the left". There are a lot of people on both ends of the political spectrum that do not have a clue what the hell they are fighting for. I've seen conservatives claim that "America is a Christian Nation", which is just about as wrong a concept as any that I can think of (there has never been a state religion that did not ultimately do much evil--power of the pulpit linked to power of the gun is simply more power than mortals can safely discharge).
Government has no appropriate role in religion. All the "God-ing" in the GOP platform is one of the reasons that I left the GOP. Almost all of the references to God in that document are talking about the "God-given" rights that should be protected by any government. They could have said "natural rights", "inalienable rights", "human rights", the result would have been the same--enumerating the things that government cannot usurp. There are some other references to God that I could not reconcile with the first amendment. The only role that any government should play in religion is protecting congregations from violence.
[bold]David Simpson, PE[/bold]
MuleShoe Engineering
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
And your point is? I certainly do not speak for "the right" any more than you speak for "the left". There are a lot of people on both ends of the political spectrum that do not have a clue what the hell they are fighting for. I've seen conservatives claim that "America is a Christian Nation", which is just about as wrong a concept as any that I can think of (there has never been a state religion that did not ultimately do much evil--power of the pulpit linked to power of the gun is simply more power than mortals can safely discharge).
Government has no appropriate role in religion. All the "God-ing" in the GOP platform is one of the reasons that I left the GOP. Almost all of the references to God in that document are talking about the "God-given" rights that should be protected by any government. They could have said "natural rights", "inalienable rights", "human rights", the result would have been the same--enumerating the things that government cannot usurp. There are some other references to God that I could not reconcile with the first amendment. The only role that any government should play in religion is protecting congregations from violence.
[bold]David Simpson, PE[/bold]
MuleShoe Engineering
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
Gee, David, we have more in common than I realized ;-) Some day, if we we're ever passing near each other, we should make it a point to find a place to tip a few... With that in mind, I'll be driving East-to-West along old Route 66 the second week in October. Your profile indicates, at least based on your server IP, that you're in New Mexico. Is that still valid?
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
About 3 hours north of Route 66 (nearly in Colorado). Come buy. I'll buy you some green Chili.
[bold]David Simpson, PE[/bold]
MuleShoe Engineering
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
[bold]David Simpson, PE[/bold]
MuleShoe Engineering
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
bridgebuster
Active member
Interesting discussion. There wasn't any need to mention God or religion in the Constitution as the Declaration of Independence set the stage by stating that the right to life, liberty , and the pursuit of happiness transcends all governments. They believed our rights come from above (fill in your own definition of above). The Constitution formalized the sentiments expressed in the preamble of the DOI. Governments only exist to protect our rights. Unfortunately, too many people in this country have fallen into the - I hate to say it - the Democrats trap that rights are granted by government. They're not and if they were then the government can take them away.
And on a controversial note: How low can NBC go by giving Julie Swetnick a forum without challenging her outlandish claims?
And on a controversial note: How low can NBC go by giving Julie Swetnick a forum without challenging her outlandish claims?
- Thread starter
- #57
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
NBC was very clear in stating that they were unable to validate her claims but that it's the job of the media to check the facts and report what appears to be true and what can't be backed-up. Isn't the motto of Faux News, "We Report - You Decide"...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
btrueblood
Mechanical
"the Democrats trap that rights are granted by government."
The Patriot Act was one of the bigger power grabs by the government in recent times, said bill was passed by a majority Republican Congress, and signed into law by a Republican President.
A bigger fear of mine is the power that has been granted to corporations to lobby Congress critters, and to pay for campaign advertising. We are becoming an oligarchy/plutocracy.
The Patriot Act was one of the bigger power grabs by the government in recent times, said bill was passed by a majority Republican Congress, and signed into law by a Republican President.
A bigger fear of mine is the power that has been granted to corporations to lobby Congress critters, and to pay for campaign advertising. We are becoming an oligarchy/plutocracy.
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
"A bigger fear of mine is the power that has been granted to corporations to lobby Congress critters, and to pay for campaign advertising. We are becoming an oligarchy/plutocracy."
And we can thank the Supreme Court for that one...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
And we can thank the Supreme Court for that one...
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
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