Ethics/Protocol Question - Calculations for my own house, need some advice... 2

[molen]

Hello all - looking for a little advice. I'm a practicing structural engineer (6+ years) in the commercial world. Not yet licensed, but taking the exam later this month. I'm currently under contract to sell my house (100+ years old), but the buyer's home inspector had issues with some joist framing under my kitchen. I've already run calculations and found no issues with the framing. The framing meets the required capacities per the IRC and ASCE. My problem is, the buyer wants sealed calcs to document the issue. So here's my dilemma - will a smaller, residential engineer be willing to sign and seal my calculations? Or will they want to produce their own calcs? I work with plenty of licensed engineers, but I don't feel comfortable asking any of them to seal my calcs. It just doesn't seem ethical or appropriate.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

 

[JAE]

You would have a conflict of interest submitting your own calculations to the buyer, of course.

Another engineer could certainly look at, utilize, check, your calculations but they would have to do their "due diligence" and satisfy themselves that the framing is OK prior to writing a letter stating such.

My course of action, if I were you, would be to tell the buyer to hire their own engineer (to avoid conflict of interest) and that you would be glad to share your calculations with that engineer should they wish to see them. Also, you could offer to recommend several engineers for the buyer to contact if they needed some names.

 

[molen]

Thanks, JAE. It is quite the conflict of interest, but the buyer and the agents are aware I'm a structural engineer and they are deferring to me to document ("certify" in their own words) that the framing is adequate. I can simply provide them my calculations and see if that suffices for them. Is that completely unethical?

 

[woodman88]

You are opening up a "can of worms" by not selling the house as is. I would get another buyer.

Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.

 

[JAE]

I would think if you send them the calculations, point out the inherent conflict of interest, and suggest they consult with a qualified engineer, then you've done enough.

It would then be up to them to retain that engineer. If they don't - you warned them and were upfront with the situation.

 

[rb1957]

i thought a conflict of interest was a problem if it was hidden. you've been open about it, i'd have thought that addressed the potential conflict of interest.

calc are calcs, anyone should arrive at the same results. the problem is i'm sure there are places to make assumptions, to be ocnservative (or overly conservative) and so here's an area of conflict of interest and unethical behaviour. if you intentionally revise the calcs to obtain a good result, then that would be unethical. if you run the calcs as you would with any other project, that's ethical.

"document" is one word, "certify" is another, "confirm" is another ...

how much would it cost to have another opinion ? i'd make really sure that all parties knew what they were getting. ok, the home inspector has flagged the issue, you've done some calcs and it looks good. i don't like "certify" for this, in your opinion the joists are satisfactory, that doesn't sound like "certify". if they mean "certify" then wouldn't that come from a licensed engineer ? i guess too, if an issue came up in the future then your substantiation could put your butt in an uncomfortable place !

 

[JoshPlumSE]

I agree with JAE. Just write them a summary letter and let them decide what to do. The letter should do the following:
1) Summarize the issue the inspector brought up.
2) Reference the calculations that you have enclosed that you believe address his issue.
3) Point out the obvious conflict of interest and suggest that they retain a LICENSED engineer to go over your calculations.
4) When you sign the document, make sure you use the EIT after your name. Better yet, write it out as Engineer In Training so that no one can accuse you of practicing engineering without a license.

My house had a similar issue (differential settlement of the floor slab) where the inspector identified a potential structural defect. It didn't affect the appraisal or anything like that. You just need a buyer that isn't scared away by the issue. In my case, I was the buyer. So, the issue ended up being in my favor.... scaring away other buyers and driving down the cost.

 

[woodman88]

You might do this first or add this to JoshPlum list, Ask what are the structural qualifications of the home inspector, or what their structural reason is, to ask this structural question? After all they may just be padding the home inspection report. This may help to “throw the ball” back to them.

Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.

 

[TLHS]

I don't know about other jurisdictions, but I wouldn't even be willing to mention my personal opinions to the buyers if I wasn't licenced in the area. I do heavy industrial work primarily in areas where I don't live. I spent time sitting on a strata when I didn't have a licence in that jurisdiction and removed myself from discussions if they started talking about structural deficiencies in the building. The exception was when there was an engineer's report or it was just a cost discussion. My contribution generally ended up being "let's hire a qualified engineer/contractor to look at it".

It doesn't matter if you tell them you aren't licenced and that your calcs are just 'for information'. They will be working on the assumption that you are a qualified engineer and you're going to end up with uninsured liabilities and you would likely be practicing engineering without a licence. If something goes wrong you could get sued and reported to your board for discipline.

So yeah. Keep your personal structural opinions and calcs out of any interaction with the other party. If you want to convince them it's okay, you pretty much have to have a third party do it or you. I'd basically tell my agent to let them know that I don't see the item as a deficiency and that the sale is "as is," but if they want to have in engineer in that would be fine. You can then bring up whether you're willing to share the costs or take on all the costs.

In all these situations, think about what the consequences are if it all goes sideways. Compare that to the benefit you're getting. Personally, I often have trouble setting my personal opinions aside in these kinds of situations, but there are good reasons to defer to others in these situations.

 

[TLHS]

Oh, I missed Josh's post somehow.

Disclosing that you're not a licenced engineer doesn't, at least in my jurisdiction, protect you from any claims that you're practicing engineering without a licence.

Our Engineering Act does not allow anyone to do the following without permission of the act:

"(a) engage in the practice of professional engineering or professional geoscience;"

Professional Engineering is:

"practice of professional engineering" means the carrying on of chemical, civil, electrical, forest, geological, mechanical, metallurgical, mining or structural engineering, and other disciplines of engineering that may be designated by the council and for which university engineering programs have been accredited by the Canadian Engineering Accreditation Board or by a body which, in the opinion of the council, is its equivalent, and includes reporting on, designing, or directing the construction of any works that require for their design, or the supervision of their construction, or the supervision of their maintenance, such experience and technical knowledge as are required under this Act for the admission by examination to membership in the association, and, without limitation, includes reporting on, designing or directing the construction of public utilities, industrial works, railways, bridges, highways, canals, harbour works, river improvements, lighthouses, wet docks, dry docks, floating docks, launch ways, marine ways, steam engines, turbines, pumps, internal combustion engines, airships and airplanes, electrical machinery and apparatus, chemical operations, machinery, and works for the development, transmission or application of power, light and heat, grain elevators, municipal works, irrigation works, sewage disposal works, drainage works, incinerators, hydraulic works, and all other engineering works, and all buildings necessary to the proper housing, installation and operation of the engineering works embraced in this definition;"

The calcs are a report that claims adequacy and molen wants someone to use it to help make a decision. There's no ill intent, but It's engineering even if it's disclosed that the person doing it isn't licenced. Honestly, it's probably worse if they know he's an engineer in training because they'll expect some degree of engineering competency over what a layman has. Isn't the whole point of providing calcs that you want them to assume some amount of competency? Otherwise they don't accomplish anything. The buyers obviously not qualified to review them, and if they're going to hire someone to review the calcs why don't they just hire them to review the original problem instead?

 

[woodman88]

Per the 2001 IRC section R106 and 2009 IBC Section107
"...The construction documents shall be prepared
by a registered design professional where required by the stat-
utes of the jurisdiction in which the project is to be constructed.
Where special conditions exist, the building official is autho-
rized to require additional construction documents to be pre-
pared by a registered design professional..."
Under the IRC/IBC if an engineer seal is needed for a residential structure the AHJ will decide. Unless the State has a rule that an engineer is required for residential structures.

Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.

 

[kylesito]

I did the calculations on my own deck and submitted them to a building inspector. I just had another engineer in my office review the design/calcs and he provided his stamp/seal on them. The inspector was satisfied as long as it wasn't my stamp on them.

I slept fine at night and never felt like I was cheating anything by doing it this way. He was a licensed engineer who review the work and stamped the drawings.



PE, SE
Eastern United States

"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi

 

[JAE]

Ah - I missed the "not yet licensed" statement in the OP.
I'd definitely disclose that you aren't a licensed engineer and that your calculations were for your own knowledge and benefit.

Put the monkey on their back to get an engineer if they feel they need one.

 

[molen]

Thanks for all the good advice, everyone. I'm really torn at this point as to what to do. I don't want to risk the sale falling through, and even more important, I don't want to risk my professional reputation and my professional future if this becomes a huge issue. My agent is recommending I just draft a quick letter, with some supporting calculations, none of which will be signed or sealed and let the buyer do as they see fit. Much like JoshPlumm recommended.

Although, at this point, I'm tempted to just run over to Home Depot, grab some 2x10s and some masonry joist hangers and just throw up some new joists to make this all go away.

 

[cvg]

you cannot issue the calculations to anyone regardless of what your agent says. If you ever expect to get licensed as a structural engineer, don't begin by breaking the boards rules before hand...

 

[JAE]

It may not violate the board rules if residential houses are excluded from requiring licensed engineer participation.

 

[PEinc]

Tell the buyer "No Calcs" unless he wants to pay the fee for an independent engineer's review. If you give the buyer calcs for the joists, he may want more analyses performed on other parts of the house. The home inspector should be able to indicate and reference the basis for his concern.

http://www.PeirceEngineering.com

 

[woodman88]

molen – why do they need you to sign off on the joists? The real estate laws in California and Arizona require a discloser statement where you are required to list any known problems. As an Engineer I found myself reviewing the houses I have sold for anything of a structural concern to repair or to place on the list. Does not your selling papers have such a statement? If is does just show them that signature.

Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.

 

[Ron]

Consider the following:

A home inspector is not qualified to make a structural assessment. Does he have a valid reason for questioning the structural integrity or is it "gut feel"?

If you provide the calculations, you might violate your engineering board's rules. Even though the house is currently yours, you would be providing calculations upon which others could rely, thus constituting "engineering".

Stick with honest disclosure and let them hire an engineer if they want. It was their inspector who questioned, let them resolve. You could offer to split the cost of an engineer to evaluate.

 

[IRstuff]

In California, regardless of what your status is, if you are not registered/licensed, you cannot "practice" engineering. Interestingly, if you were to do calculations for making your own modifications to your own house, there's an exemption. However, since you are offering your calculations to another party, you must be licensed.

TTFN
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