Illinois is now requiring 30 hours of continuing education in every two year licensing period. I hear rumors about engineers not renewing or going to inactive status rather than complete the education. Does anyone know if there are any studies (maybe in other states) that support or deny that this is happening?
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Engineering Registration 4
- Thread starter Maury
- Start date
ACtrafficengr
Civil/Environmental
It's an option in NY, which now requires 36 hrs every 3 years. I don't know how often people use it. I'd imagine most people that do it either aren't practicing much anyway, or weren't paying attention and didn't get their hours in.
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SlideRuleEra
Structural
South Carolina initiated the same requirement (30 pdh's in a 2 year period) in 1998. The only change that I have noticed was a dramatic increase in monthly, annual, and semi-annual ASCE meeting attendance (they count toward the requirement). Also many engineers are taking engineering continuing education short cources in May & June (SC's fiscal year, for these purposes, ends on June 30).
I was randomly selected for audit by the State Board in 2001 - no big deal. Mailed in copies of receipts and the adgenda notices for various meetings and short courses that I had participated in. Got a nice letter back from the Board saying that everything was in order.
I was randomly selected for audit by the State Board in 2001 - no big deal. Mailed in copies of receipts and the adgenda notices for various meetings and short courses that I had participated in. Got a nice letter back from the Board saying that everything was in order.
If you continue and practice without a license, you will be committing a criminal offense and be relatively easy to find.
For what its worth, other professions besides engineers are being held to continuing education. It is not just the engineering profession.
For what its worth, other professions besides engineers are being held to continuing education. It is not just the engineering profession.
Chances are nil, the continuing education hours will increase the quality of engineers. "Real" engineers do the personal development on our own time. You can train a pig all you want and it will never be a race horse, contrary to popular opinion. Someone is making a lot of money, I understand a whole industry has popped up around the PDHs.
It's not surprising that some engineers get fed up. And more power to them if they want to continue engineering.
It's not surprising that some engineers get fed up. And more power to them if they want to continue engineering.
swine...I wouldn't advise any engineer to drop licensure and continue to practice engineering. Yes, doing the PDH requirement is a pain. In my resident state, at least part of that has to be in the current building code. I think that's a good thing. Making all engineers familiar with the code provisions is good.
30 PDH's is a bit steep. I am licensed in two states that require 30 hours. One other requires 12 and two require 8 hours. The ones that require 30 hours will accept many things to comply. In my resident state, things like meeting do not meet the requirement. The course must be provided by a registered provider.
If we don't like the laws we should work to change them, not violate them.
30 PDH's is a bit steep. I am licensed in two states that require 30 hours. One other requires 12 and two require 8 hours. The ones that require 30 hours will accept many things to comply. In my resident state, things like meeting do not meet the requirement. The course must be provided by a registered provider.
If we don't like the laws we should work to change them, not violate them.
- Thread starter
- #8
Maury,
I'm earning an associates degree in computer aided drafting and computer technology. I have had courses in autocad, mechanical desktop, and inventor. In addition I have taken courses in advanced excel, database design, programming, computer systems, networking, photoshop, and illustrator.
All of these are requirements for todays engineer. I'm just an old fart who decided a few years back to upgrade my skills in the areas of computers and autocad. While these are not engineering courses per se, they are skills that enhance my abilty to do engineering and thus qualify for PDH's.
I'm earning an associates degree in computer aided drafting and computer technology. I have had courses in autocad, mechanical desktop, and inventor. In addition I have taken courses in advanced excel, database design, programming, computer systems, networking, photoshop, and illustrator.
All of these are requirements for todays engineer. I'm just an old fart who decided a few years back to upgrade my skills in the areas of computers and autocad. While these are not engineering courses per se, they are skills that enhance my abilty to do engineering and thus qualify for PDH's.
I had this requirement, not with my PE renewal, but with my NACE Corrosion Specialist renewal about two years ago.
I just documented what I did the previous 5 years, which luckily included writing a chapter for a SNAME Handbook, and it was accepted (I was not that involved with NACE society mattings, so I wasn't sure if my documentation would be sufficient).
I think very little of the practice of using "continuing education" as a prod to get more participation at various society meetings. I may just consider taking a few classes at the community college - doesn't cost much, we should never stop learning, etc.
I just documented what I did the previous 5 years, which luckily included writing a chapter for a SNAME Handbook, and it was accepted (I was not that involved with NACE society mattings, so I wasn't sure if my documentation would be sufficient).
I think very little of the practice of using "continuing education" as a prod to get more participation at various society meetings. I may just consider taking a few classes at the community college - doesn't cost much, we should never stop learning, etc.
I suggest that these requirements might be drafted, most likely, by educators - they can make a nice penny from holding courses! I've seen some agencies give points for papers published (academic); for patents; but never/rarely for taking engineering publications, reading them and using them. This was hard to do while living in China (I don't know Chinese) but has been more easy here in India as I live in the town of one of the well known engineering schools and can attend lectures and conferences/give them and generally partake in some of the academia stuff available. There really needs to be some standardization and, perhaps, cheaper continuing education courses, etc. that one can attend - $300/pop for a one day conference is a bit stiff if you are paying it yourself.
![[cheers]](/data/assets/smilies/cheers.gif "[cheers] [cheers]")
Here in PA, USA the PE and PLS do not require CEUs (luckily, so far). But my Sewage Treatment Operators License does...15 credits worth! I don't know if I will renew or not.
As an engineer, and strictly in terms of earnings potential, the value of a WWTP license is arguably minimal at best, and probably worthless. So, I will probably let it lapse. Not a big deal, just dissapointing.
But for those who are WWTP Operators for a living, I've heard a licensed operator in a 1 MGD or less plant only makes about $1/hr more than a non-licensed person. That's only about $2k/yr, or $1600 take home. 15 college-level credits, if they can be had at all for $1600, can't be much cheaper than that.
So, I hear and to some extent agree with Maury's original post. Why take on the liability and responsibility of being a PE, when you could just do the tasks under a PE for a little less money and a lot less headaches? On the other hand, my pay as a PE is way (at least 40%) more than it was as an EIT. So, given Maury's predicament, I think I would just take the courses, shell out the bucks, raise concerns with NCEES or the state Board, complain a little to my wife and co-workersand stay licensed.
Just my $0.02
Remember: The Chinese ideogram for “crisis” is comprised of the characters for “danger” and “opportunity.”
-Steve
As an engineer, and strictly in terms of earnings potential, the value of a WWTP license is arguably minimal at best, and probably worthless. So, I will probably let it lapse. Not a big deal, just dissapointing.
But for those who are WWTP Operators for a living, I've heard a licensed operator in a 1 MGD or less plant only makes about $1/hr more than a non-licensed person. That's only about $2k/yr, or $1600 take home. 15 college-level credits, if they can be had at all for $1600, can't be much cheaper than that.
So, I hear and to some extent agree with Maury's original post. Why take on the liability and responsibility of being a PE, when you could just do the tasks under a PE for a little less money and a lot less headaches? On the other hand, my pay as a PE is way (at least 40%) more than it was as an EIT. So, given Maury's predicament, I think I would just take the courses, shell out the bucks, raise concerns with NCEES or the state Board, complain a little to my wife and co-workersand stay licensed.
Just my $0.02
Remember: The Chinese ideogram for “crisis” is comprised of the characters for “danger” and “opportunity.”
-Steve
In TN the requirements are the same, 30 pdh's every two years. My company on a semi regular basis invites vendors we will potentially be using, have used, or that vend new products to come to our office and put on lunch time seminars. The vendors buy the lunches, give presentations, and we in turn recieve pdh's and can bill an hour to in house education and training. I don't know what the requirements are on the allowable pdh's per seminar but the number has varied. Usually it is one pdh per hour seminar but has been greater. We have had presentations given by trench drain vendors, several oil/water separator vendors, pipe vendors, pipe line repair pushers, goesynthetic vendors, concrete rehab contractors, and keystone wall vendors to name just a few. If your company will talk to these guys and suggest such seminars they will probably be receptive at no cost to you or your company.
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- #14
Would you go to a doctor that has not kept up on technical advances since he got his MD in 1970?
What about taking you car to a mechanic who has only the skills learned in the early 80's?
Yes, educational institutions see this as a cash cow. It does not mean that you have to take the course that they offer.
There are many avenues to obtain pdh's. If you go to a trade show document it. Write an article fro an engineering magazine or e-zine. Give a presentations to a community college class, technical society etc. There exists several publication that give an exam online after reading the article that count for pdh's, some as low as $15 per pdh. Management courses, safety courses count toward pdh's. If you provide training to a fellow employees write up a short syllabi, document when you did the training. The training counts for the fellow employees and double for you.
I do however grant that the system is not perfect. My biggest grip with the system is that states have different calendar years so if one is registered in multiple jurisdictions book-keeping as a hassle.
What about taking you car to a mechanic who has only the skills learned in the early 80's?
Yes, educational institutions see this as a cash cow. It does not mean that you have to take the course that they offer.
There are many avenues to obtain pdh's. If you go to a trade show document it. Write an article fro an engineering magazine or e-zine. Give a presentations to a community college class, technical society etc. There exists several publication that give an exam online after reading the article that count for pdh's, some as low as $15 per pdh. Management courses, safety courses count toward pdh's. If you provide training to a fellow employees write up a short syllabi, document when you did the training. The training counts for the fellow employees and double for you.
I do however grant that the system is not perfect. My biggest grip with the system is that states have different calendar years so if one is registered in multiple jurisdictions book-keeping as a hassle.
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3
- #15
This set of forums are more beneficial than a multitude of pdh classes. We are addressing real problems instantly and everyone benefits. We should have the instructors of these pdh classes participate as we do. They should also get credits for participation and contributing.
Double what queque said. I learn more here everyday than I do in any two or three seminars. Plus, it's multi-disciplinary. I check out geo, CAD, storm, WW, and more during a five minute break. I give advise on things I know, I read and follow threads I need to know but don't yet know.
As far as all these lectures, etc. counting as CEUs, check with your state first. PADEP has a list of approved courses for their WWTP CEUs, there is free stuff in there, but I haven't found many. I am taking one free seminar next week that will be worth 3, but I still have 12 to go. Most on the list are given for a fee, typically community college night courses.
Remember: The Chinese ideogram for “crisis” is comprised of the characters for “danger” and “opportunity.”
-Steve
As far as all these lectures, etc. counting as CEUs, check with your state first. PADEP has a list of approved courses for their WWTP CEUs, there is free stuff in there, but I haven't found many. I am taking one free seminar next week that will be worth 3, but I still have 12 to go. Most on the list are given for a fee, typically community college night courses.
Remember: The Chinese ideogram for “crisis” is comprised of the characters for “danger” and “opportunity.”
-Steve
GeoPaveTraffic
Geotechnical
While I agree that a lot of what engineers use to get PDH's etc. are not beneficial, the idea behind the requirement is valid. I see work product from middle age and older engineers on a regular basis that does not account for current design methods and philosophies.
Engineers that want to keep up will whether there is a requirement or not. Those that do not want to keep up will take whatever cheap/easy classes they can to make the requirement. There are a few in the middle that the requirement might get into the first group instead of the later.
The only solution is for engineers to start regulating themselves at a much higher level than the state. It is not easy and it would be a shock to the system of a lot of engineers and clients, but it is the only way. Do I think it will happen? Not on your life, engineers as a profession have become to competitive with each other to ever get together in a meaningful way for the better of the profession.
Sorry to preach, just a sore spot with me.
Engineers that want to keep up will whether there is a requirement or not. Those that do not want to keep up will take whatever cheap/easy classes they can to make the requirement. There are a few in the middle that the requirement might get into the first group instead of the later.
The only solution is for engineers to start regulating themselves at a much higher level than the state. It is not easy and it would be a shock to the system of a lot of engineers and clients, but it is the only way. Do I think it will happen? Not on your life, engineers as a profession have become to competitive with each other to ever get together in a meaningful way for the better of the profession.
Sorry to preach, just a sore spot with me.
SlideRuleEra
Structural
queque - Excellent point about learning from Eng-Tips forums. I am an occasional adjunct instructor for continuing education (PDH) classes at a community college. Actually stumbled onto Eng-Tips two years ago looking for relevant course content ideas - found it, too - I'm still here.
some state take this seriously i am a rls and the requirements are the same as an eng 15 hrs per year i was three days late getting them in and was put in inactive status and had to re apply re pay re submit sample plans and get new endorsments everything except taking the test itself and wait 4 months for the board to meet it cost me several hundred dollars by the time it was said and done
Slugger926
Bioengineer
The Engineers that I know that are dropping their PE's haven't done engineering in 10 years or more. They are managers and directors in non engineering parts of the company. Also, it doesn't seem PE's are required here either since I am the only one. In fact, a majority of the engineers don't have college degrees and some may not even have HS degrees. ARGHHHH>>>>>>>>>>
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