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draughtsman in UK 3
- Thread starter engeeneer
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I don't know about the UK, but pure draftmen are nonexistent at my company. We don't want to pay an engineer to do the engineering and another person to translate the engineering into a design. While having an engineer do the drafting is instantaneously inefficient, the elimination of erroneous communications, re-dos, faster turnarounds on changes, etc., makes it reasonably worthwhile. When business changes, the engineer can potentially adapt, but not always with the draftsman.
In any case, your postings show a complete lack of direction. I would suggest to you to concentrate on getting a full engineering degree first; the fact that you've yet to really pronounce which discipline you're actually trying to get into is already problematic. It seems to me that you are putting the cart before the horse. Figure out what you actually like, and what you're actually good at, before wasting energy with these questions.
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In any case, your postings show a complete lack of direction. I would suggest to you to concentrate on getting a full engineering degree first; the fact that you've yet to really pronounce which discipline you're actually trying to get into is already problematic. It seems to me that you are putting the cart before the horse. Figure out what you actually like, and what you're actually good at, before wasting energy with these questions.
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When I read the description of HNC/HND, it sounds like it's geared specifically for shop work, which you seem adamant about NOT doing. Therefore, a full engineering degree is a must, if that's the general field you want to be in.
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To some extent it will be employer specific - some might accept just GCSE level schooling in some cases (especially if you're friends with the owner etc.).
Most of the guys I knew were:
1) Older
2) Had apprenticeships
3) The apprenticeships had included HNC/HND/City & Guilds or similar.
However, I & most of the younger hires I encountered had BEng and were more all round Design Engineers doing their own drafting as required.
We made a number of attempts at getting people in to the drawing office either off the production floor or as apprentices while studying night school as well but it didn't really work out - not saying it's a fundamental issue just that for us it didn't work out.
Most of the guys I knew were:
1) Older
2) Had apprenticeships
3) The apprenticeships had included HNC/HND/City & Guilds or similar.
However, I & most of the younger hires I encountered had BEng and were more all round Design Engineers doing their own drafting as required.
We made a number of attempts at getting people in to the drawing office either off the production floor or as apprentices while studying night school as well but it didn't really work out - not saying it's a fundamental issue just that for us it didn't work out.
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What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
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Maybe you should look elsewhere for advice. Here you are in contact with engineers mainly. They are telling what goes on there. I would suggest calling or stopping at industries that make things, especially things that require different appearances or sizes where there is no real engineering required. Some of these industries require persons to create plans for the product that the client wants. One such industry makes custom windows. Cabinet makers for new houses, especially expensive ones, don't just pick them from a catalog. Almost all custom work needs something to follow in the shop. . Even furniture factories require some drawings for each item that they make. In construction plans are required for scaffolding, manholes, etc. that may or may not need an engineer, The least you need to even start is a good grasp of computer aided drawing. No one draws plans any more on a drafting table. A technical college degree still may be needed.
The term is CAD jockey. It's someone that turns other people's ideas into drawings. They are not well thought of by design engineers who have to do all of the calculations, then model the part, then produce production drawings.
There is no place for someone who just wants to knock out drawings without knowing what they are drawing and why. Employers want value for money and will demand someone that can design and model and create drawings that conform to BS8888.
To get a job as a design engineer, you will need to have an HNC at the very least. Ideally a good degree if you want to make good money.
HPost BEng CEng MIMechE
There is no place for someone who just wants to knock out drawings without knowing what they are drawing and why. Employers want value for money and will demand someone that can design and model and create drawings that conform to BS8888.
To get a job as a design engineer, you will need to have an HNC at the very least. Ideally a good degree if you want to make good money.
HPost BEng CEng MIMechE
MacGyverS2000
Electrical
A small point of reference, since money seems to be of interest to the OP (well, who doesn't have an interest)...
In the US, a CAD jockey can expect to make US$30-35k, give or take. If he's efficient, he might see a $10k jump in salary over the next 10 years. When you're placed in a job that requires a certain skillset, but that skillset does not require higher levels of intelligence to learn/use it, you're limited in your career growth. If you demand more money, I'll just replace you with the next trained monkey.
Now, take that same CAD jockey who also understands what he's working on, because he has the desire to obtain a degree... well, that person can very quickly move past the first, both in career growth and pay. If you put more into it, you get more out of it. An engineer can easily earn 2-4 times that amount, depending upon field.
Dan - Owner
In the US, a CAD jockey can expect to make US$30-35k, give or take. If he's efficient, he might see a $10k jump in salary over the next 10 years. When you're placed in a job that requires a certain skillset, but that skillset does not require higher levels of intelligence to learn/use it, you're limited in your career growth. If you demand more money, I'll just replace you with the next trained monkey.
Now, take that same CAD jockey who also understands what he's working on, because he has the desire to obtain a degree... well, that person can very quickly move past the first, both in career growth and pay. If you put more into it, you get more out of it. An engineer can easily earn 2-4 times that amount, depending upon field.
Dan - Owner
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1
- #9
Many valid points...
These comments relate to the US:
First, where did I miss the fact that the OP was mainly interested in the money?
Second, a CAD jockey does not necessarily equate with a good drafter, but does much more than what members of the typing pool (to use an archaic image) used to do. CAD jockeys know how to use software to create models (based on engineer input) and drawings (sometimes marginal), while a good drafter knows how to create a clear, concise drawing, usually using that same software. The drafter by necessity becomes adept at modeling but it can be taken as an insult to refer to them as a mere CAD jockey, especially as they gain design experience. They are another stop-gap at catching engineering oversights that may not have been caught until manufacturing had the data.
The desire to obtain a degree, while very helpful is not a necessity to become skilled at drafting/design while still benefiting from increasing income relative to experience. An experienced "CAD jockey" (drafter/designer) can expect to make 70K+ after 10 years, depending on industry, software, experience and location. There are still some companies that actually hire drafters in this day and age (admitted fewer than before) and those are the ones to find to get your foot into the door.
Design drafting is just another link in the development chain from product conception to manufacture (whether those duties are given to engineers or not).
“Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively.”
-Dalai Lama XIV
These comments relate to the US:
First, where did I miss the fact that the OP was mainly interested in the money?
Second, a CAD jockey does not necessarily equate with a good drafter, but does much more than what members of the typing pool (to use an archaic image) used to do. CAD jockeys know how to use software to create models (based on engineer input) and drawings (sometimes marginal), while a good drafter knows how to create a clear, concise drawing, usually using that same software. The drafter by necessity becomes adept at modeling but it can be taken as an insult to refer to them as a mere CAD jockey, especially as they gain design experience. They are another stop-gap at catching engineering oversights that may not have been caught until manufacturing had the data.
The desire to obtain a degree, while very helpful is not a necessity to become skilled at drafting/design while still benefiting from increasing income relative to experience. An experienced "CAD jockey" (drafter/designer) can expect to make 70K+ after 10 years, depending on industry, software, experience and location. There are still some companies that actually hire drafters in this day and age (admitted fewer than before) and those are the ones to find to get your foot into the door.
Design drafting is just another link in the development chain from product conception to manufacture (whether those duties are given to engineers or not).
“Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively.”
-Dalai Lama XIV
The OP has been almost spamming this forum with his threads on his less than realistic requirements on noise, grease, money:
"Which such roles can you suggest me? Roles that are in demand and pay well, would be preferred. "
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"Which such roles can you suggest me? Roles that are in demand and pay well, would be preferred. "
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"An experienced "CAD jockey" (drafter/designer) can expect to make 70K+ after 10 years, depending on industry, software, experience and location"
Dollars? If its pounds I will be deeply upset
Regarding getting a draughtsman/designers job in the UK as a new starter a degree is a must in any sort of engineering firm that actually designs anything. Alternatively you can work up from the shop floor but its not like it was even a few years ago.
It would be intersting to know how old the OP is - 15/16 maybe 17
Dollars? If its pounds I will be deeply upset
Regarding getting a draughtsman/designers job in the UK as a new starter a degree is a must in any sort of engineering firm that actually designs anything. Alternatively you can work up from the shop floor but its not like it was even a few years ago.
It would be intersting to know how old the OP is - 15/16 maybe 17
MacGyverS2000
Electrical
Derby,
ewh specified his comments were based upon jobs in the US, so yes, US$70k... though his definition of a CAD jockey is vastly different than some of the rest of us. If it's a monkey drawing CAD lines, it's a $35k job... if they're expected to make suggestions to the engineer, then it's a different job and likely pays more (though still likely starting in the US$50k range).
To be fair, I often see a difference in expected work responsibilities for the same title between the US and <insert other country name here>, so that's likely half of the confusion. When I was in high school, working on my Bachelors, etc., a draftsman was no different than a CAD jockey (AutoCAD was just beginning to hit the schools, so more and more students were being trained in it). It was (is?) a low-paying job that required no real intelligence, just an efficiency with a T-square or mouse. You copied what the engineer created, mistakes and all. It beat working at McDonald's, but you'd never make it into that mansion you had always dreamed of.
Dan - Owner
ewh specified his comments were based upon jobs in the US, so yes, US$70k... though his definition of a CAD jockey is vastly different than some of the rest of us. If it's a monkey drawing CAD lines, it's a $35k job... if they're expected to make suggestions to the engineer, then it's a different job and likely pays more (though still likely starting in the US$50k range).
To be fair, I often see a difference in expected work responsibilities for the same title between the US and <insert other country name here>, so that's likely half of the confusion. When I was in high school, working on my Bachelors, etc., a draftsman was no different than a CAD jockey (AutoCAD was just beginning to hit the schools, so more and more students were being trained in it). It was (is?) a low-paying job that required no real intelligence, just an efficiency with a T-square or mouse. You copied what the engineer created, mistakes and all. It beat working at McDonald's, but you'd never make it into that mansion you had always dreamed of.
Dan - Owner
"I am soon to start an HNC/HND in engineering and possibly an apprenticeship."
The OP is probably in their last year of high school. HND is roughly equivalent to an AA in the US, from what I can tell.
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The OP is probably in their last year of high school. HND is roughly equivalent to an AA in the US, from what I can tell.
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So at least where I worked in the UK the person that blindly copied what the 'Engineer' had detailed was called a 'Tracer' - because they put the mylar (or whatever) over the Engineers pencil on paper drawing and traced it in ink. Or something like that, maybe they actually traced over the pencil with ink on the mylar, anyway the last tracer was long gone by the time I joined the company - or technically she'd been reassigned as the receptionist.
To me a true draughtsman is not the same as a CAD Jockey. A CAD Jockey/Monkey knows all the buttons on the CAD program but that's about it. A true draughtsman as well as knowing his 'tool' has some kind of basic technical foundation/aptitude, & knows how to create a proper drawing including properly determining and applying tolerances - these are things many engineers suck at. The term designer will sometimes get used too though this can imply a bit more strength on the technical side though still without bachelors.
Plus to confuse it more, a lot of the older folks that had an apprenticeship and a HNC/HND got to be called engineers back at my place (and similar places) in the UK.
However, this just goes to the point that a 'rose by any other name...'. Different employers, let alone different industries or different countries will call the same thing different names/assign slightly different functions to the same name.
To the OP, look at what courses your local technical college (or whatever the current term is) offers and see if they can give any information on what if any companies they may have a relationship with. Are 'modern apprenticeships' still a thing?
(Please note it's been about 10 years since I was in the UK and I haven't necessarily kept up with things.)
To me a true draughtsman is not the same as a CAD Jockey. A CAD Jockey/Monkey knows all the buttons on the CAD program but that's about it. A true draughtsman as well as knowing his 'tool' has some kind of basic technical foundation/aptitude, & knows how to create a proper drawing including properly determining and applying tolerances - these are things many engineers suck at. The term designer will sometimes get used too though this can imply a bit more strength on the technical side though still without bachelors.
Plus to confuse it more, a lot of the older folks that had an apprenticeship and a HNC/HND got to be called engineers back at my place (and similar places) in the UK.
However, this just goes to the point that a 'rose by any other name...'. Different employers, let alone different industries or different countries will call the same thing different names/assign slightly different functions to the same name.
To the OP, look at what courses your local technical college (or whatever the current term is) offers and see if they can give any information on what if any companies they may have a relationship with. Are 'modern apprenticeships' still a thing?
(Please note it's been about 10 years since I was in the UK and I haven't necessarily kept up with things.)
Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
Oh, and I meant to stay when I started at my current US employer via a job shop operating as essentially a drafter/designer I was making about $33/hour back in 2005, I maybe got a couple extra $ an hour because of my degree but it didn't make much difference and some folks without degree but with more experience were making more than me. This is in a high cost of living area but kind of meshes with what ewh is saying.
Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
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"Different employers, let alone different industries or different countries will call the same thing different names/assign slightly different functions to the same name"
Sure, BUT, and it's a BIG BUT, without the degree, most companies will not consider an applicant, even if they were called "Engineer" at a previous company.
As for what an Engineer does, I'll quote from the California Professional Engineers Act:
6701. Professional engineer defined
“Professional engineer,” within the meaning and intent of this act, refers to a person engaged in the professional practice of rendering service or creative work requiring education, training and experience in engineering sciences and the application of special knowledge of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences in such professional or creative work as consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning or design of public or private utilities, structures, machines, processes, circuits, buildings, equipment or projects, and supervision of construction for the purpose of securing compliance with specifications and design for any such work.
Thus, an engineer may create CAD drawings as part of their work, but things like thermal or stress analysis would be well outside of the purview of a "CAD jockey." A CAD jockey might create similar CAD drawings, but in most cases, they would be unable to justify or explain why certain wall thicknesses are required, or where the greatest stress might be, or how to change the design to support a new requirement.
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Sure, BUT, and it's a BIG BUT, without the degree, most companies will not consider an applicant, even if they were called "Engineer" at a previous company.
As for what an Engineer does, I'll quote from the California Professional Engineers Act:
6701. Professional engineer defined
“Professional engineer,” within the meaning and intent of this act, refers to a person engaged in the professional practice of rendering service or creative work requiring education, training and experience in engineering sciences and the application of special knowledge of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences in such professional or creative work as consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning or design of public or private utilities, structures, machines, processes, circuits, buildings, equipment or projects, and supervision of construction for the purpose of securing compliance with specifications and design for any such work.
Thus, an engineer may create CAD drawings as part of their work, but things like thermal or stress analysis would be well outside of the purview of a "CAD jockey." A CAD jockey might create similar CAD drawings, but in most cases, they would be unable to justify or explain why certain wall thicknesses are required, or where the greatest stress might be, or how to change the design to support a new requirement.
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"Sure, BUT, and it's a BIG BUT, without the degree, most companies will not consider an applicant, even if they were called "Engineer" at a previous company. "
Sorry IRstuff but at least 10 years ago in my sector in the UK not remotely true.
A lot of the older and even mid career engineers had come up through apprenticeships etc. not having a bachelors degree and at least some employers in some industries still had some sort of Apprenticeship programs. I actually got asked by my eventual employer why I'd gone to university not through an apprenticeship.
Now my impression was that this was becoming less common in lieu of the university route and so I'd encourage the OP to reconsider that approach if possible but I doubt the non degree path is completely closed off.
Sorry but there are differences between the US and the rest of the world and folks trying to answer questions in other jurisdictions without taking this into account may be doing the people asking the question a dis service.
Sorry IRstuff but at least 10 years ago in my sector in the UK not remotely true.
A lot of the older and even mid career engineers had come up through apprenticeships etc. not having a bachelors degree and at least some employers in some industries still had some sort of Apprenticeship programs. I actually got asked by my eventual employer why I'd gone to university not through an apprenticeship.
Now my impression was that this was becoming less common in lieu of the university route and so I'd encourage the OP to reconsider that approach if possible but I doubt the non degree path is completely closed off.
Sorry but there are differences between the US and the rest of the world and folks trying to answer questions in other jurisdictions without taking this into account may be doing the people asking the question a dis service.
Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
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