Digital Seal and Signature

[LOTE]

I know this topic has been discussed before, but I would like to see if the opinions have changed in recent years. What is your practice for digitally sealing documents?

For my particular case, I had been applying a photocopy of my seal with signature to every page, then additionally applying a digital signature to the document using 3rd party verification (Identrust). Even though I set the document security to allow for markups and stamps, I have been getting big push back from the owner/AHJ (DOTs in most cases). They either do not want any security applied to the drawings, or they don't want any visual digital signature (they only want to see the photocopy of the seal). This of course does not follow the guidance given by the engineering board, which is state law in some cases.

I am considering just having a photocopy of my seal with a signature but no date, then applying just the date (no other text) with the digital signature tool to the cover page. However, I foresee getting push back if I do not apply my seal and date on every sheet of a drawing set. Alternatively, I am considering a disclaimer along the lines of "this document is void unless verifiable digital signature is present", then saving a version with the digital signature applied just for our records.

I would love to know your all's thoughts.

 

[LOTE]

It embeds it into the PDF. When you put a stamp on a PDF in Bluebeam (or Adobe, I imagine), it's a markup, which are stored differently. The contain attributes such as who placed it and when, and the ability to copy, move, or delete it. If you flatten it, it removes the markup status and it makes it as though it was there when the PDF was created.

In Bluebeam, it's important to check the box that makes it impossible to unflatten again in the future.

Does this matter if you place the seal in CAD and publish to PDF? Or only if you place as stamp or image in the PDF?

 

[EngDM]

Does this matter if you place the seal in CAD and publish to PDF? Or only if you place as stamp or image in the PDF?

Depends how you have you CAD set up. I'm not sure when AutoCAD did this, but they made text items appear as SHX Text in pdf viewers, which have attributes similar to comments and stamps but they aren't editable as comments. In PDF Xchange you can use the edit tool and can pick these items up and delete/copy them. Oddly enough if you flatten in PDF Xchange you can still use the edit function, it just no longer is shown/selectable as a comment. Maybe bluebeam can do a true flatten, but that would be similar to just printing to PDF.

 

[Craig_H]

I do think that we need to push back on our provincial & state regulators a wee bit on this. They need to demonstrate that by adding the cost and complexity of a digital signature platform, that they have reduced incidences of document falsification/modification and incidences of seal theft. If they can't do that, then the logical question is why are we doing all this?

In my humble opinion, the same goes for tracking CPD. Most good professionals do enough CPD by default of being good professionals. We stay current because we are curious, continuous learners and not because someone told us to fill out a spreadsheet and track it. The regulators need to show us that CPD tracking and audits are actually making an improvement in our profession. If it's not doing that, then the program has little value.

 

[XR250]

I do think that we need to push back on our provincial & state regulators a wee bit on this. They need to demonstrate that by adding the cost and complexity of a digital signature platform, that they have reduced incidences of document falsification/modification and incidences of seal theft. If they can't do that, then the logical question is why are we doing all this?

In my humble opinion, the same goes for tracking CPD. Most good professionals do enough CPD by default of being good professionals. We stay current because we are curious, continuous learners and not because someone told us to fill out a spreadsheet and track it. The regulators need to show us that CPD tracking and audits are actually making an improvement in our profession. If it's not doing that, then the program has little value.

I agree with this. As far as CPD goes, if it was not required, i would not do the quick and dirty shitty online stuff every December. i feel i get all the CPD i need being present in this forum.

 

[canwesteng]

Planning and tracking is one thing... the requirement for verifiable CPD certs is just a cash grab

 

[skeletron]

I do think that we need to push back on our provincial & state regulators a wee bit on this. They need to demonstrate that by adding the cost and complexity of a digital signature platform, that they have reduced incidences of document falsification/modification and incidences of seal theft. If they can't do that, then the logical question is why are we doing all this?

In my humble opinion, the same goes for tracking CPD. Most good professionals do enough CPD by default of being good professionals. We stay current because we are curious, continuous learners and not because someone told us to fill out a spreadsheet and track it. The regulators need to show us that CPD tracking and audits are actually making an improvement in our profession. If it's not doing that, then the program has little value.

Agree with some of the sentiment here. But also...

Option A: Electronic Signature
Notarius/Consigno fee for 1 year = $215 per year per stamp
Time to digitally seal and email = 0.25 hr x ${ENGINEER_BILLING_RATE}

Option B: Print Shop
Cost of a 5-sheet, 24x36 printed set x 5 (...most AHJ's in the Lower Mainland want 4-copies submitted + you need to retain 1) = $50
Time to pickup from the printer = 1 hr x ${ENGINEER_BILLING_RATE}
Time to wet-seal 25 sheets = 0.25 hr x ${ENGINEER_BILLING_RATE}
Plastic bag and printed transmittal = $###
Stamp pad = ${SOME_NOMINAL_OVERHEAD_FEE}
Hot-shot Courier Fee = $30 ?
====> Total Cost = $80-90 + 1.5hr x ${ENGINEER_BILLING_RATE} = $300 - 400 per drawing set

Option C: Print In-House
Cost of the print package = ${SOME_NOMINAL_OVERHEAD_FEE_FOR_PAPER_AND_SUPPLIES}
Cost of plotter = ${SOME_ASSET_FEE_SPREAD_OVER_MULTIPLE_YEARS}
Cost of plotter maintenance = ${SOME_SUBSCRIPTION_FEE}
Time to wet-seal 25 sheets = 0.25 hr x ${ENGINEER_BILLING_RATE}
Plastic bag and printed transmittal = $###
Stamp pad = ${SOME_NOMINAL_OVERHEAD_FEE}
Hot-shot Courier Fee = $30 ?
====> Total Cost = ... you get the idea

As much of a PIA the Notarius fee is, it actually isn't that bad for jurisdictions where you are doing your primary work. The number of "...oh, actually can you revise this..." moments I've dealt with after submitting drawings is so much easier to stomach in the digital environment. It's also super convenient if you are submitting reports and letters as a primary deliverable; there is no print, stamp, scan required. The Consigno program arguably sucks, but that's just UI/UX type concerns.

Now, if you are registered in multiple jurisdictions Notarius will then charge you a fee for each jurisdiction. The PIA increases, I get it. It's why I limit my AB and YK work to smaller deliverables where I can print, wet seal, scan.

I've reported (2) cases of falsified or stolen stamps. The first was a contractor using some other guy's old job to design a new unpermitted change. Document was not digitally sealed/certified (i.e. stamp appeared really crisp and sharp, no digital certificate, looked like engineer flattened it). The second case was one where the truss manufacturer was using some engineer's name put on a stamp with a number belonging to another engineer, neither identity was registered to work at the company. Stamp was a wet-seal scan. In both cases, the association did pulled some info from me and then nothing really turned up in terms of discipline from what I can see.

 

[Craig_H]

Yup, agreed that the costs are not crazy. I am still not convinced, though, that all the "digital security" actually accomplishes much. I think it just makes some of our work a pain (compiling multi-disciplinary project drawings into one file, sealing spec books, etc). I like the warm fuzzy feeling that I have the most security available on my seal, but also know that if someone truly wanted to make my life hell, that they absolutely could make a good fake of my stamp, trace my signature, and go to town with it.

The second case was one where the truss manufacturer was using some engineer's name put on a stamp with a number belonging to another engineer, neither identity was registered to work at the company.

Holy cow, that's really wild. And that's not clipping a stamp from another drawing, that's straight up forgery! Wild nothing came of it.

 

[RenHen]

I would definitely agree with pushing back on this where we can. It may be the most appealing option for some at the moment, but it's also transparently useless security theater that could and imo should be gotten rid of. Anyone with $30 and a printer scanner can circumvent these measures since there is no equivalent security on wet seals.

 

[SE2607]

Hmm, my seal and signature are just a bitmap object in my CAD system. The date is just CAD text.i don't know what it does with it once the whole thing is converted to a PDF.

That is as good as flattened.
I'm surprised no one is suggesting we go back to the embossing tool!

 

[SE2607]

I would definitely agree with pushing back on this where we can. It may be the most appealing option for some at the moment, but it's also transparently useless security theater that could and imo should be gotten rid of. Anyone with $30 and a printer scanner can circumvent these measures since there is no equivalent security on wet seals.

I think the only way to really do it is to print protect the document, but the building officials I've run into regarding this issue won't accept them.

 

[phamENG]

compiling multi-disciplinary project drawings into one file, sealing spec books, etc

My first encounter with these requirements were on US Federal Government jobs. The Navy required a certain signature key or something and all of the sealing professionals had to meet at the architect's office on a set day to electronically sign their sheets of the set, because once signed they couldn't be combined afterward.

My state doesn't have the strict requirements, but the state just to the south of me where I do a fair amount of work does have those requirements. I just apply security through bluebeam that prevents copying and most editing but allows markups so the stamps still work.