My company manufactures aftermarket performance diesel parts. Mainly for tractors. I would like to develope a EFI Common Rail system for our engines. I'm looking for some suggestions on companies I could work with, and ideas were to find parts that are already avialable. The engines we build generate around 2000-3000 hp, and can consume from 1200cc to 2000cc of fuel per revolution. Right now our fuel system consits of a Sigma style aftermarket pump. Any suggestions would be helpfull. Mainly looking for ideas on ECU and Injectors.
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Diesel EFI Systems. 2
- Thread starter EricSMI
- Start date
BrianPetersen
Mechanical
Sure about 2000cc (2 litres!) of fuel per revolution??
Bosch and Siemens are two big names in automotive-scale systems but I don't know if they extend the common-rail concept to such big engines.
Bosch and Siemens are two big names in automotive-scale systems but I don't know if they extend the common-rail concept to such big engines.
SomptingGuy
Automotive
Maybe that's 1200-2000 mg of fuel per cylinder per cycle?
- Steve
- Steve
2000cc/rev would be about 1.7kg/rev, which at 43,000kJ/kg would give 73,100 kJ/rev released energy. At 600rpm (10 rev/sec) and a low efficiency of 30%, that'd be nearly 300,000hp.... so 2000cc/rev sounds a bit high, or I've accidentally multiplied by 10^x somewhere.
At 1200rpm, 30% efficiency, 10cc/rev would get you about 3000hp.
At 1200rpm, 30% efficiency, 10cc/rev would get you about 3000hp.
- Thread starter
- #5
I can check on that number. I was told our pump is set at 1450cc of fuel. I believe that is the amount of fuel delivery in one revolution of the crankshaft. I believe that is the total for all 6 cylinders. So about 333 cc per cylinder. I have been in contact with bosch in the past, and unless were talking about a sinificant amount of purchasing volume, I wasn't given the time of day. Any advice on resources for learning about the technical side of fuel systems, mainly Diesel EFI systems, would also help.
- Thread starter
- #6
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1
- #7
You need to talk to Exergy Engineering:
PJGD
PJGD
Another possibility, they were beginning to adapt their ECM to a CR Cummins
turbocohen
Automotive
The Wärtsilä 9L46D fitted in a Carnival cruise liner uses common rail. There was an SAE tour of it some time ago. It is a marraige of Wärtsilä and Sulzer technology that they make with their vendors assistance. It does not produce enough smoke to be annoying to passengers and that was a driving issue. The fuel savings eventually will pay for the higher cost but the smog benefit is immediate. Some harbors do not allow idling due to smoke and this will alleviate much of the concern. At idle the exhaust can be routed to a secondary trap or scr chamber and urea injection can be used. A ship used this setup here almost 18 years ago with limited usefulness but new 30,000psi common rail was not involved.
Hope this helps, Turbo
Here is an article they put out:
Hope this helps, Turbo
Here is an article they put out:
Pump size can be misleading because of the fuel recirculation.
With large diesel engines, such as the Wartsila, Man B&W, MAK etc. they usually size the pumps to deliver about twice the maximum fuel consumption.
This is partly to do with the fact that the fuel is heated and the returning (heated) fuel is mixed in the high pressure circuit with cooler make up fuel and the objective is to try and achieve stable heater control.
I couldn't say how the pumps are sized for gasoil or diesel.
JMW
With large diesel engines, such as the Wartsila, Man B&W, MAK etc. they usually size the pumps to deliver about twice the maximum fuel consumption.
This is partly to do with the fact that the fuel is heated and the returning (heated) fuel is mixed in the high pressure circuit with cooler make up fuel and the objective is to try and achieve stable heater control.
I couldn't say how the pumps are sized for gasoil or diesel.
JMW
- Thread starter
- #11
ricbie
Automotive
- Jan 15, 2009
- 1
Eric,
Delphi and Bosch both manufacture common rail pumps. Denso has a first generation pump now on the market.
Filtration: UFI, or Racor make filters for common rail systems.
For fuel feed from the tank, Bosch, Continental, or TI Automotive are your choices.
I am a recently retired Sr. engineer from Chrysler and have been working on common rail systems for years.
Delphi and Bosch both manufacture common rail pumps. Denso has a first generation pump now on the market.
Filtration: UFI, or Racor make filters for common rail systems.
For fuel feed from the tank, Bosch, Continental, or TI Automotive are your choices.
I am a recently retired Sr. engineer from Chrysler and have been working on common rail systems for years.
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1
- #13
turbomotor
Mechanical
Eric,
Not exactly an answer to your question, but a company with interesting fuel injection technology (similar to the CAT HEUI technology) is Sturman. You may want to take a look...
Not exactly an answer to your question, but a company with interesting fuel injection technology (similar to the CAT HEUI technology) is Sturman. You may want to take a look...
turbomotor,
Remember when we were using that prototype 20ksi common rail system from DTC (now known as Exergy) on the TRC engine back in about 1993? Man, was that system crude! I remember the control box DTC provided for it consisted of three knobs: one for rail pressure, one for BOI, and one for PW.
Worst of all, after every rebuild we'd spend hours chasing leaks in the high-pressure plumbing. The drill usually went like this:
step 1- motor engine up to speed using dyno.
step 2- turn knob to slowly increase rail pressure.
step 3- hit emergency stop on dyno controls when test cell is instantly filled with super-atomized fuel cloud (thus becoming a potential fuel-air bomb) due to 20,000psi fuel rail leak.
step 4- climb out from under desk, take fingers out of ears, change underwear, fix leak, and repeat steps 1-3.
And getting that TRC engine to light-off with its 12:1 compression ratio was always pretty exciting. We would motor the engine up to speed, set the BOI and PW, and then slowly bring up the rail pressure. When that 92 cubic inch single cylinder TRC engine, with its 8 atm of boost, would finally light-off, it would create an un-godly roar, shake the control room, and cause everyone in there to jump a foot into the air. We had to wear ear plugs even in the control room, and the noise and vibration were so bad that you felt physically fatigued after only about 1 hour of running.
Other than that, it was great fun! Check out Marius' "objective" technical write-up on the program. I was the guy running the engine and strangely I don't recall most of this:
Regards,
Terry
Remember when we were using that prototype 20ksi common rail system from DTC (now known as Exergy) on the TRC engine back in about 1993? Man, was that system crude! I remember the control box DTC provided for it consisted of three knobs: one for rail pressure, one for BOI, and one for PW.
Worst of all, after every rebuild we'd spend hours chasing leaks in the high-pressure plumbing. The drill usually went like this:
step 1- motor engine up to speed using dyno.
step 2- turn knob to slowly increase rail pressure.
step 3- hit emergency stop on dyno controls when test cell is instantly filled with super-atomized fuel cloud (thus becoming a potential fuel-air bomb) due to 20,000psi fuel rail leak.
step 4- climb out from under desk, take fingers out of ears, change underwear, fix leak, and repeat steps 1-3.
And getting that TRC engine to light-off with its 12:1 compression ratio was always pretty exciting. We would motor the engine up to speed, set the BOI and PW, and then slowly bring up the rail pressure. When that 92 cubic inch single cylinder TRC engine, with its 8 atm of boost, would finally light-off, it would create an un-godly roar, shake the control room, and cause everyone in there to jump a foot into the air. We had to wear ear plugs even in the control room, and the noise and vibration were so bad that you felt physically fatigued after only about 1 hour of running.
Other than that, it was great fun! Check out Marius' "objective" technical write-up on the program. I was the guy running the engine and strangely I don't recall most of this:
Regards,
Terry
DeJongEngineering
Mechanical
2000 cc per rotation means:
42000 KJ/Kg x 0.8 Kg/Ltr x 2 Ltr x 40% efficiency = 26880 KJ
per rotation.
This means that at a power of 3000 hp the engine runs:
3000 hp x 0.7355 KW/hp / 26880 KJ/rot x 60 rot/min = 4.9 RPM
I have never seen such an engine running that RPM at max. power.
42000 KJ/Kg x 0.8 Kg/Ltr x 2 Ltr x 40% efficiency = 26880 KJ
per rotation.
This means that at a power of 3000 hp the engine runs:
3000 hp x 0.7355 KW/hp / 26880 KJ/rot x 60 rot/min = 4.9 RPM
I have never seen such an engine running that RPM at max. power.
TDIMeister
Automotive
Just to throw in yet another different CR concept, MAN's system for large engines is something of a hybrid with a unit injection system. Each pump unit serves 2 adjacent cylinders rather than one or two pumps and long rails serving a whole bank of cylinders. The advantage is modularity so that one does not have to carry a large number of different pump capacities and rails (which get exponentially harder to ensure zero defects at 2000 bar operating pressures on such a large piece) from anywhere from 6-20+ cylinder engines that are in their product portfolio.
You can buy Bosch MS-Series Diesel ECUs and injectors directly from . They don't come cheap, but are suited for the purpose (Diesel), and for development and one-off purposes the prices are par for course.
You can buy Bosch MS-Series Diesel ECUs and injectors directly from . They don't come cheap, but are suited for the purpose (Diesel), and for development and one-off purposes the prices are par for course.
MikeHalloran
Mechanical
Some of the confusion, and possibly sarcasm, in this discussion is rooted in a simple misperception.
In trades that deal with small liquid volumes, it is common to make volume measurements not in cubic centimeters, but in cubic millimeters.
Conveniently, just as 1 cm^3 is roughly a milli-litre,
it works out that 1 mm^3 is roughly a micro-litre.
All, please check units when quoting numbers.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
In trades that deal with small liquid volumes, it is common to make volume measurements not in cubic centimeters, but in cubic millimeters.
Conveniently, just as 1 cm^3 is roughly a milli-litre,
it works out that 1 mm^3 is roughly a micro-litre.
All, please check units when quoting numbers.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
SomptingGuy
Automotive
When I worked for Lucas CAV, mg/inj was the most common injection quantity unit, hence my (non-sarcastic) post.
- Steve
- Steve
I know I'm way late on adding to this thread but I would have to imagine EricSMI works for a company that produces performance parts for Diesel Pulling Tractors, which if you've ever been to a pull you would understand where his fluid volume figure came from. They can burn gallons of fuel on a 300 foot run that lasts less than a minute.
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