Design Documents 2

[SteelPE]

What does is mean when an engineer requests information in a design document format? I though design documents were the plans and details prepared by an engineer.

In this instance we are required to send sealed connections to the EOR through the fabricator. The drawings required information submitted to the engineer in a "design document format not a shop drawing format". I sketched up the connections and sent them over. Now they are requesting calculations to back up my design. Not that big of a deal just a little PITA.

 

[connectegr]

Sorry I meant east of the Rockies

http://www.FerrellEngineering.com

 

[connectegr]

We have consulted on several projects on the west coast. But, the connections remain the responsibility of the EOR.

For most projects, similar to the project leading to the post, connection design is minimal. For many of these small projects we provide the required connection package, but also are available to consult on fabrication and erection issues. Many of these questions are not addressed to the EOR, or they benefit from a more technical discussion between the EOR and connection engineer.

http://www.FerrellEngineering.com

 

[archeng59]

As long as the final approval and responsibility of the connections fall to me as the EOR, I will design the connections.

 

[ToadJones]

I design and detail all of my own connections these days.
When I started out in the power industry, I would have really liked to have had access to Connectegr at our office.

Like he said, the building design for the plant support structures seemed relatively simple when compared to some of the connection nightmares we encountered. There were times when I designed connections for a month straight.
For normal everyday connections, the task is pretty simple.
I can understand the need for a specialized engineering firm for connection design on large projects (especially industrial).
I respect Connectegr's input on this forum and I applaud him for his effort in answering questions. Anyone who has spent weeks on end dealing with tricky connections would likely agree.

 

[rowingengineer]

Us engineers in australia do our own connection design, i think everytime this comes up connectegr and myself end up on different sides of the fence. i guess this is because of normal practice in each others home land but i still fail to see how you can select your members without consideration of detailing.

http://www.nceng.com.au/

"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."

 

[steellion]

My apologies, dhengr, I didn't realize that I was actually being lazy working 55 hours a week to get a full Steel Mill Order out as part of an Early Early Early Structural Set before the architect has cut a single section. And of course, every beam and column size had better be right, or else the contractor will want an explanation for why it changed beyond "you wanted a 100% design at 20%".

So now, I'm also going to design all of the connections, so I'll just ramp it up to 80 hours a week. I can't ask for additional fee for this additional work, because the client will not understand and then just go elsewhere for their structural engineering services. The fabricator is popping champagne because he certainly isn't giving any money back from his usual price, despite the fact that the engineer has gone against protocol and designed all of the connections. But he sends a few RFI's to the engineer anyway to better align with his standards that only he knows, adding more uncompensated work to the structural EOR.

In summary, don't hate the player, hate the game. I'm not sure how it got to this point in the Eastern US, but it is a system that everyone has gotten used to and is comfortable with. Excuse me, it's time for my morning nap.

 

[ToadJones]

Rowing-
"I still fail to see how you can select your members without consideration of detailing"...oh, you certainly cannot, but I have been involved in a few huge projects where this was a major problem.
On a few power projects we were forced to choose beams from rolling schedules. On some of the column line braced bays towards the bottom of 270' + tall boiler buildings we'd have struts with extremely high axial loads. Some of the engineers just let the software choose the beam-columns (really just columns at this point)and you might wind up with a W14 beam-column with no where near enough depth to use any kind of normal connection because of the high axial loads. Next thing you know, you spent a week trying to design some wild a$$ connection because you were stuck with your beam size....that is until you ran past your deadline and the rolling schedule changed then rinse and repeat!

 

[SteelPE]

steellion

If you think there are a bunch of fabricators out there "popping champagne" you are out of touch with the industry. As bad as it is on the design side of things.... it is just as bad on the other side of the fence. I have done plenty of projects where we were nailed down to final sizes off of napkin sketches. The key is to not figure to the gnats a$$ and have room to make some modifications.

I didn't mean for this to turn into a discussion about who is responsible for the connection design. I was just interested in the definition of design documents and whether the definition included calculations or not. I found it a bit irritating that when I submitted a perfectly fine set of sealed sketches the EOR then wanted to see my backup calculations..... especially since the connections came directly out of the AISC steel manual.

I am going to photocopy the pages and send them to the EOR for their review.

 

[steellion]

SteelPE, I think that you misinterpreted my statement. I was responding to dhengr's sarcastic assessment that building engineers are "lazy" because we don't design the connections. My point is simply that the current standard of practice on the East Coast would make it highly impractical for us to decide to skirt the system and to design our own connections lest we be considered "lazy". East Coast engineers do not design connections; ergo, it is not in our fee and design schedule. East Coast fabricators do design connections; ergo, it is in their fee and design schedule. That's all I was trying to say.

 

[msquared48]

Steellion:

On the West coast, fabricators are generally not structural engineers.

I assume this is not true on the East coast?

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

 

[ToadJones]

Many fabricators used to employ connection design engineers...I assume most smaller shops are now subbing out the connection design...

 

[ukengineer58]

not sure why everyone is so against fabricator design. most decent size fabricators in uk can provide a full structural design actually. to be honest i fail to see the point in us wasting time detailing every bolt and fixture that will only be replicated on the fabrication drawings anyway (therefore done twice). to be honest on a large project we ve got bigger fish to fry. the fabricators will do the most economical connections for them. I fail to see the advantage of giving them a detail and and them asking to di an alternative.

 

[steellion]

Msquared,
By "fabricator", I meant the structural engineer designing the connections, employed directly by the fabricator or hired by the fabricator by project.

 

[rowingengineer]

food for thought here, I work for a few fabrication companies as the engineer for D&C contracts some of these are in the UK most of them are in the Australasia region. Generally they retain me to do both the structure and connections. Most of these have similar requirements for fabrication with the biggest difference being the erectors requirements.

http://www.nceng.com.au/

"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."