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Coordination between Engineer and Draughtsman 10
- Thread starter L4Legit
- Start date
GregLocock
Automotive
I'm guessing the answer to that would be very industry specific. In the auto industry we often start from something similar to the intended design, the draughty pushes ideas around, and finally comes up with a design that fits his many requirements (manufacturability, clearances and ground clearance and design for assembly etc), shunts it across to me to analyse, I find problems, suggest solutions, give him a revised solution and he sees if it works from his point of view. That can take weeks.
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
Back when I was doing 'hard engineering' (1971-1980) about half the time I did my own drawings, but then we were designing and manufacturing what you would call discreet machines, often with made 300 or 400 parts, about half were purchased and half were fabricated and of those, many were so-called 'standard' parts which had already been used in a previous design so sometime you might only need 50 new parts. On large jobs where I was the head designed/project engineer I would have a team of three or four draftsmen, which actually created more work for me and/or my boss. Also note that for things like control panels and conduit layouts, we would turn that over to the guys in the electrical group. We were responsible for locating and mounting electrical components, like motors, limit-switches, electric eyes/sensors, cam-boxes, etc, but the actual wiring and design and locating of the control panel(s) and junction boxes was someone else job. Granted we had the final say because we were responsible for the functioning of the machine, but most of the time the electrical was added without much of our input or concern.
Now I have to admit that our industry was not like others since most work was simply updating what already existed or modifying some existing machine to meet a customers specific needs. In my nine years as designer/project engineer, I only worked on two large programs where we started from scratch. I also managed a couple of minor projects where we developed completely new machines, one of which we applied for and was issued a patent (US 4132320). My other patent was for adding a unique feature to an existing machine that was sufficient enough that a new patent could be applied for (US 3877592).
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
Now I have to admit that our industry was not like others since most work was simply updating what already existed or modifying some existing machine to meet a customers specific needs. In my nine years as designer/project engineer, I only worked on two large programs where we started from scratch. I also managed a couple of minor projects where we developed completely new machines, one of which we applied for and was issued a patent (US 4132320). My other patent was for adding a unique feature to an existing machine that was sufficient enough that a new patent could be applied for (US 3877592).
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
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truckandbus
Automotive
best set up I worked with had product engineer with two project engineers. Each project engineer had two design engineers. Each design engineer had two drafters. Everybody had enough going onto keep everybody else busy. Deadlines are expected to be met unless reasons are given and given early enough for the senior staff to react.
I've never understood a 1:1 engineer:designer ratio
I've never understood a 1:1 engineer:designer ratio
Are you both local (same office) to each other or remote (different country, region, or buildings)?
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of these Forums?
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of these Forums?
1. I design the part or assembly then create and save the model in PLM.
2. Drafting is notified, creates a pretty print, and saves that to PLM.
3. I'm notified to review, review, and email markups as necessary.
4. Repeat 2&3 as necessary.
5. Once I approve, checking is notified for review.
6. They gripe about corporate drafting standards, sending markups as necessary.
7. Repeat 2-6 until both myself and checking are happy.
8. 16 other people input nonessential data into PLM about part/assembly packaging (ala shipping for parts sales), manufacturing/assembly details, etc.
9. Senior management sees enough boxes checked and blindly signs off.
Ive usually had a single draftsman for about every 10 engineers, no real need for much interaction aside from emails and edited/highlighted pdfs/screenshots for markups.
2. Drafting is notified, creates a pretty print, and saves that to PLM.
3. I'm notified to review, review, and email markups as necessary.
4. Repeat 2&3 as necessary.
5. Once I approve, checking is notified for review.
6. They gripe about corporate drafting standards, sending markups as necessary.
7. Repeat 2-6 until both myself and checking are happy.
8. 16 other people input nonessential data into PLM about part/assembly packaging (ala shipping for parts sales), manufacturing/assembly details, etc.
9. Senior management sees enough boxes checked and blindly signs off.
Ive usually had a single draftsman for about every 10 engineers, no real need for much interaction aside from emails and edited/highlighted pdfs/screenshots for markups.
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btrueblood
Mechanical
I get the brilliant idea and model it up in our CAD package. Then the lazy draftsman fiddles around, screwing up the tolerancing and such, and creates a drawing that manufacturing piddles red ink all over, so it goes through a couple of revisions just to get something that they can make with their worn-out chisels and hacksaws. Sometimes I take the draftsman to lunch, hoping maybe it's low blood sugar that makes him such a turkey to work with. Sometimes I think it's a lack of beer. At least I'm only buying one lunch...for me...because I am that draftsman.
MikeHalloran
Mechanical
Forty years ago, I had two designers, each of whom had two drafters, all spreading lead under my direction, with informal design reviews at least once a day.
Twenty years ago, I oversaw the efforts of four designers, by uncovering their layouts at night and leaving notes and sketches, in what was a part time job for me. I was able to stop and chat for only a short time each day.
Starting ten years ago, whoever happens to sit in front of a CAD station is called an engineer,
without regard to education or skill. Some of them have an idea what they are doing. Their MBA bosses can't tell the difference.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
Twenty years ago, I oversaw the efforts of four designers, by uncovering their layouts at night and leaving notes and sketches, in what was a part time job for me. I was able to stop and chat for only a short time each day.
Starting ten years ago, whoever happens to sit in front of a CAD station is called an engineer,
without regard to education or skill. Some of them have an idea what they are doing. Their MBA bosses can't tell the difference.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
msquared48
Structural
I thought a drafter was the guy who served the draft (draught) beer... ![[cheers]](/data/assets/smilies/cheers.gif "[cheers] [cheers]")
As for the coordination, I have to go to the head of CADD in advance to see what his backup is and plan ahead a week or two, if possible, top have the information to draft to him for assignment when he has an opening in his schedule.
CADD is the bottleneck here and coordination helps, but the delay still happens.
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
As for the coordination, I have to go to the head of CADD in advance to see what his backup is and plan ahead a week or two, if possible, top have the information to draft to him for assignment when he has an opening in his schedule.
CADD is the bottleneck here and coordination helps, but the delay still happens.
Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)
When I started out my career in the early '80's, there was typically one engineer to 3 draftsmen (draftpersons?.....draftpersbodies????)
In the 1990's there was 1 to 2 engineers for every draftsman.
In the 2000's perhaps 3 to 4 engineers to one draftsman.
Currently all our engineers do our own drawings and details.
With BIM/Revit there's no better way. We have no drafting personnel...only engineers.
Having said that, when I do (did) use a draftsman:
How do you organize the project between you two?
Depends on the skill level of the drafter. If they are more of a tech, then they can many times put together pretty good initial plans and details on their own once briefed on the project.
If they are novices, then there may be more on-going hand-holding and actual sketches/redlines that need to be provided by the engineer.
And how strict are you with the deadlines etc?
Always looked at that as my job as the engineer to watch the pace and progress and work with the drafters on getting done on time....too broad of a question in that there are all sorts of schedules and all sorts of drafters with different speeds.
One thing I did find common is that new employee drafters tend to work very fast and get a lot done. As time progresses many (not all) slow down and pace themselves.
Check out Eng-Tips Forum's Policies here:
faq731-376
In the 1990's there was 1 to 2 engineers for every draftsman.
In the 2000's perhaps 3 to 4 engineers to one draftsman.
Currently all our engineers do our own drawings and details.
With BIM/Revit there's no better way. We have no drafting personnel...only engineers.
Having said that, when I do (did) use a draftsman:
How do you organize the project between you two?
Depends on the skill level of the drafter. If they are more of a tech, then they can many times put together pretty good initial plans and details on their own once briefed on the project.
If they are novices, then there may be more on-going hand-holding and actual sketches/redlines that need to be provided by the engineer.
And how strict are you with the deadlines etc?
Always looked at that as my job as the engineer to watch the pace and progress and work with the drafters on getting done on time....too broad of a question in that there are all sorts of schedules and all sorts of drafters with different speeds.
One thing I did find common is that new employee drafters tend to work very fast and get a lot done. As time progresses many (not all) slow down and pace themselves.
Check out Eng-Tips Forum's Policies here:
faq731-376
SandCounter
Mechanical
I had a draftsman once. . .
I used to count sand. Now I don't count at all.
I used to count sand. Now I don't count at all.
Historically I've been my own draftsman like btrue, and frankly despite as many mistakes and errors as I've made I'm as good or better a designer/draftsman/CAD Jockey as just about any I've ever worked with.
I'm a pretty lousy Engineer though but hey, can't have everything.
I've tried delegating tasks on various occasions but they generally do a mediocre job and I spend as much time checking their work and giving them input and getting mediocre out put as it would typically take me to get on with it and turn out slightly less mediocre product.
I'm a pretty lousy Engineer though but hey, can't have everything.
I've tried delegating tasks on various occasions but they generally do a mediocre job and I spend as much time checking their work and giving them input and getting mediocre out put as it would typically take me to get on with it and turn out slightly less mediocre product.
Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
Sadly the opposite is true as well, whoever sits in front of the PC is often called a draftsman without regard for education or skill. Most with engineering degrees have little clue what they are doing and their engineering managers cannot tell the difference.
btrueblood
Mechanical
Kenat, with your lousy engineering and my lousy drafting, we might team up and average things out...with me drafting and you engineering, we could really screw $#%$# up.
BiPolarMoment
Mechanical
I had a mechanical designer that did his own drafting. I much prefer that setup to the "typical" one we use where the draftsman has no idea what the part is supposed to do which means the dimensions rarely reflect the design intent on the first go through. I'd much rather bicker over GD&T specifics than to have to play telephone with the designer to confirm I'm on the same page and then back to the drafter to fix. That said, the designers are far more talented at coming up with clever mechanisms than I am so I'm glad I don't have to draft their crazy ideas.
Ok I started as a Draughtsman, In the old days pre 1970's the engineer came over with a bunch of chicken scratching on a ring binder scratch pad. We would take what he had and prepare a draft layout. He would then come over and vomit red ink all over it.
We would take a fresh sheet and do a new layout incorporating the changes he had made. When that was satisfactory, we would do the first drawing.
Nowadays with cad you erase and re draw while the engineer watches. Or you send him/her a PDF which he scribbles on with red ink .You then change that to suit. Or the engineer draws the whole thing, gets what he/she wants then gives you the finished lousy looking drawing, and says make it look pretty . You do that , then do an interference check on all of the other drawings in the assembly and notify the engineer of the points where the parts will not fit. The engineer vomits red ink all over the drawings and hands them back to you.
B.E.
You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.
We would take a fresh sheet and do a new layout incorporating the changes he had made. When that was satisfactory, we would do the first drawing.
Nowadays with cad you erase and re draw while the engineer watches. Or you send him/her a PDF which he scribbles on with red ink .You then change that to suit. Or the engineer draws the whole thing, gets what he/she wants then gives you the finished lousy looking drawing, and says make it look pretty . You do that , then do an interference check on all of the other drawings in the assembly and notify the engineer of the points where the parts will not fit. The engineer vomits red ink all over the drawings and hands them back to you.
B.E.
You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.
JAE said:
JAE, I'd like to know more...
How large is the firm? How difficult is it to switch between your engineer and draftsman hat? Do you find projects are generally more profitable as compared with using drafties? What are the downsides of your current arrangement?
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