Conflict of Interest 3

[peppinu]

I work in a company that designs and manufactures auotomotive parts. I am in charge of CAD business administration.
About 18 years ago the company sent me for CAD training and since then I have been training all new designers in a particular CAD software.

There might be an opportunity to give training to another company which produces medical fittings.
Unofficially I was told that I cannot do this as I would be in a conflict of interst.

I intend to take this up with HR and most probably with corporate which is in the USA.
What is your opinion in all this?

 

[berkshire]

So this would be a part time job with another company.
What are your company rules on this?
B.E.

The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor

 

[peppinu]

In a way it is a one of part-time job. The below is part of "Code of business Conduct":

A “conflict of interest” exists when a person’s private interest interferes in any way - or even appears to interfere - with the interests of the Company. A conflict situation can arise when an employee, officer or director takes actions or has interests
that may make it difficult to perform his or her Company work objectively and effectively.
Conflicts of interest may also arise when an employee, officer or director, or a member of his or her family, receives improper personal benefits as a result of his or her position in the Company. Loans to, or guarantees of obligations of, employees, officers and directors and their family members by the Company may create conflicts of interest and in certain instances are prohibited by law.
Company Relationships: It is a conflict of interest for a Company employee or officer to work for a competitor, customer or supplier. Employees should avoid any direct or indirect business connection with our customers, suppliers or competitors,
except as required on our behalf.

 

[jmw]

So you are training them on CAD?
They are medical and you are automotive?
This is on your own time?

Unofficially I was told that I cannot do this as I would be in a conflict of interest.

I was going to suggest you ask them in what way this is a conflict of interest then I see your code of business conduct where it says "appears to interfere".
"Improper" is another of those weasel words.
This code seems to deliver absolute control over your private life to the discretion of the management.
You could be earning a few dollars on a paper round and they could choose to think that improper or they could consider you being a volunteer fireman a conflict of interest.

This seems to me to give the company undue rights over what you do in your own time. Oh, and don't let them claim that because they trained you 18 years ago that they own whatever knowledge you have acquired over the years. Of course, this could just be an attempt at a catch all clause in which case you would expect to see good management use this is quite a different way to bad management.

Has anyone challenged this ever?
Once we get into this area it is always a question of local legislation and what is and is not reasonable or even enforceable.

But you have to ask yourself:
Here we have a manager (with or without the title... without probably if my read of this company is anywhere close)of CAD business administration who has been there 18 years.
Some one in the company is saying you can't go and train some other company that doesn't compete in any way with you.
That someone has to be a senior manager.
That someone needs to ask himself:
"Why is my CAD business Administration manager" having to work extra jobs or wanting to work extra jobs?"
"If its a money thing maybe we aren't paying enough.
If it's an interest thing maybe he is losing interest in his job and we need to see about expanding or changing his role some how or maybe he simply needs outside interests?"
But it seems pretty churlish to shut down some ones opportunity for interest or extra money where there is no obvious detriment to the company, no obvious conflict of interest and the "appears to be" is vague - unless the work is coming from the current supplier of CAD software etc. to your company?

Somewhere in there is the thought that maybe you've been with this company too long.
18 years is plenty of time for your salary to fall way behind market values.
If this is a CAD company asking you to do this training, maybe they have a permanent opening or can find enough of these jobs for you to be able to give your current employer the bird.

By all means talk to HR but be pretty robust and push your position. You really need to have them make a proper judgement and not simply fall back on the "appears to" clauses.
Make a full statement of what you want to do and ask them for a written response giving the company's permission or it's clearly stated reasons why it refuses you permission.
In the specific case you present to them you should insist on a specific answer as these "appears to be" clauses are a catch all and need to be qualified in individual cases where the company has an opportunity to clearly identify any possible improper behaviour or conflicts of interest.
But once you raise it with HR I think you need a written response either way for your protection for whatever you then decide to do.







JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[TheTick]

The mistake was to ask. If you could do this undetected, then you should just do it.

 

[jmw]

Yes, definitely one of those "it is better to ask forgiveness afterwards (if caught) than permission before" situations.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[peppinu]

I just had a heated talk with our HR.
With all due respect but eventaually this is coming from corporate being an American.
The reason is purely becuase I was dumb and stupid enough to accept to provide in-house training at that time. Since I give training in-house I cannot provide this service outside. I was politley told that it is wise to leave it at that. In the recent past people had to resign with no choice.

I can take it to court but.... Here we have a saying that the small fish does not eat the big fish.

 

[KENAT]

So do they offer their in house training to non employees?

Don't get me wrong, unless you think a lucrative career in CAD training awaits you outside of your current employer then I'd suck it up and do as HR tell me, grumbling all the way and possibly even dusting of my resume etc.

However, unless the in house training can be offered to non employees I struggle to see the harm from your companies point of view - you could even agree to reciprocate and not offer training outside the business to employees of your current place.

Do you post on any of the CAD forums here, is that also now forbidden so you won't be able to anymore?

Sorry, I don't mean to rile you up, probably best to accept defeat - you know:

"God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference. "

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[cvg]

regardless of what your HR weenie said, I see no conflict of interest

 

[tygerdawg]

Consider another scenario:

Your company teaches you how to run a milling machine. After some years of experience, you are good at it and also know how to run machines from Brand-X, Brand-Y, and Brand-Z. While running the machine one day you are daydreaming and think about how easy it would be to make small Aztec figurines on these machines. You also think it would be cool & fun to try to sell these figurines at craft fairs and make a little money on the side as a hobby. So you spend your own money to buy a Brand-R machine, do a little work evenings & weekends on your own time to make figurines, and sell them at craft fairs. None of this "hobby" work ever interferes with your "day job".

Where is the conflict of interest in that?

Tick was right. If the HR weasels & Management humps raise a stink about it, then let it go this time. But don't ask next time.

TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering

http://www.bluetechnik.com

 

[jmw]

You've been there at least 18 years and some HR weenie is giving you grief?

This sound very much like what Eric Sykes called the "Peaked Cap Syndrome".
His actual words were directed at a parking warden and were "Give them a peaked cap and they think they are Hitler".
In other words, no attempt to use their brains or logic but an utter devotion to making people obey rules no matter what and a tendency to make up or interpret rules their way but certainly never to allow logic or reason to enter in.
This syndrome is all pervasive and especially where fancy job titles substitute for the uniform and peaked cap.

There may be a way round this if you can safely take this to your boss for example, or any one with some authority who may have some sympathy for your situation. You might grumble a bit where it might do some good.

If there is no one where it will do some good, take a look and ask your self if your work or work environment has gotten better over the years or worse and if you really want to carry on here.

The temptation is to see if there is enough training available for you to do this by yourself or for some company.

I'll bet the HR weanie didn't think to ask you why you wanted or needed to do this.
Am I right?

By the way.
If you give training in house I'll bet they never adjusted your salary to include for this nor worked out how much you save them over the years. They might not have even bothered to formalise this. i.e. it may not appear in your job description unless they've updated that over the years (did you sign any updates?).

Just figure out how many in house training sessions you have given and how much you would get paid for this one. Work out how much you ought to be worth on a per hour basis. Or, better yet, get a quote from an external provider and cost it the way they do.
So, is giving in house training written into your job description?
It's not?
It would be nice, but risky, to say you have decided that since this isn't in your job description you need to devote more of your time to what is.

But if HR are playing hard ball, if you don't have any sympathisers, if 18 years with the company buys you nothing maybe you do need to look outside.

You didn't say how this outside training opportunity arose.
If it came to you via a CAD supplier, maybe they have some opportunities?

PS don't do the calculation of how much the training you provide would have cost the company from an outside provider if you have no intention of looking outside. It might depress you too much.



JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[TomBarsh]

It is because of situations like this that I used to see my coworkers at my (former) employer, a very large, prestigious, international E&C, working part-time at the shopping mall, selling shoes and cutlery. I should have realized then.

 

[MintJulep]

So did you ask which provision would be specifically violated, because I don't see it.

A "conflict of interest" exists when a person's private interest interferes in any way - or even appears to interfere - with the interests of the Company.

Your company makes automotive parts. They make medical parts. No conflict.

A conflict situation can arise when an employee, officer or director takes actions or has interests
that may make it difficult to perform his or her Company work objectively and effectively.

Since there is no overlap in business there is no opportunity for this to affect your objectivity. If you are required to provided training, than providing more training to new and different users provides you the opportunity to improve your skills, and thus increase your effectiveness. No conflict.

Conflicts of interest may also arise when an employee, officer or director, or a member of his or her family, receives improper personal benefits as a result of his or her position in the Company.

This is probably what they will hang their hat on. They paid for your initial training, and now you are trying to benefit from the result of that training. Pretty damn weasely.

Loans to, or guarantees of obligations of, employees, officers and directors and their family members by the Company may create conflicts of interest and in certain instances are prohibited by law.

Not applicable here. No conflict.

Company Relationships: It is a conflict of interest for a Company employee or officer to work for a competitor, customer or supplier. Employees should avoid any direct or indirect business connection with our customers, suppliers or competitors,
except as required on our behalf.

Not a customer, supplier or competitor. No conflict.

 

[jmw]

Yep.
That is about how I read it with just one possible area of conflict which might be if this training was facilitated by a supplier.

That's why I asked how this opportunity came about.

"....providing more training to new and different users provides you the opportunity to improve your skills..."

Alas, while this is a very valid point it is doubtful, given the reaction of the HR weanie, that this would be dismissed out of hand.
Since there is no justification for refusing permission there will also be no interest in any benefits accruing to the company.
HR weanies...... they probably have no concept of what this is about anyway.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[berkshire]

The only way I can see this affecting your present employer, is if you cannot perform 100% for him, as a result of your taking this job.
B.E.

The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor

 

[jmw]

" ....I was politley told that it is wise to leave it at that. In the recent past people had to resign with no choice.

I can take it to court but.... Here we have a saying that the small fish does not eat the big fish. {/quote]

It sounds also a lot like intimidation and hence also exploitation. They seem to go together pretty well.

"Here" being? (This could help us avoid giving advice which in some countries will earn you a slapped writs but in others might get you house arrest or "disappeared")

If you're gonna be a small fish, be a piranha.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[ajack1]

Whatever the rights or wrongs in all this or whatever anyone else thinks the important thing seems to be how would you stand legally if you went ahead anyway?

It strikes me that the company will be less than happy if you go ahead and do something you have been specifically asked not to do, if they have the law on their side it is hard to see how you can come out of this well. If on the other hand you have the law on your side you might think it is worth doing, however unless you are looking to make a career out of this or move companies in the near future it probably still won’t be a happy ending.

Ultimately you are going to have to take responsibility for the results of your actions, knowing where you stand legally would seem an absolute must to me before making a decision one way or the other.

 

[cvg]

"...if they have the law on their side.."

what law? It is highly unlikely there would ever be any laws broken. Unlikely any contracts breached either. Not performing to 100% of your ability is 1) not a conflict of interest and b) difficult if not impossible to prove 2) not against any laws.

Of course if he is in a right to work state, then he could be terminated for nearly any reason at any time, no laws need to be broken.

 

[KENAT]

Come on cvg, I think jmw, ajack and others have pointed out that without knowing where the guy is, almost anything is possible.

If he's working at North Korea Widget Co. then jmw's point about being disappeared is only half joking.;-)

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[cvg]

well, that really is a weak argument. unless you are within just a few communist or lawless/3rd world countries (not likely would be posting on this forum...) then employers really cannot force employees to do anything against their will during their off time. They can, however, use extortion to make them do whatever they want if they can get away with it.