Code of Ethics?

[tctctraining]

We are manufacturer of electrical equipments.Some customer require a function test at the filed on these equipments after installation.
At the moment we don't have any equipment to perform the test.I have come up with a design on my own time which can be used to perform the test.
I am wondering how I can sell the device to our customers and still obligate professional engineers code which could be a conflict of interest.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

The company you work for does not provide testing equipment for their own products? If that's the case, and customers require field testing, the only potential gotcha I can see is you putting your company in a tight position if your test equipment shows the product working to spec when it is actually not doing so. You are not competing with your own company as they don't make test equipment, they only make the product. If anything, you may be increasing their sales as customers now have a way to verify... the sale may have been lost if such an option were not available.


Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[IRstuff]

It's not necessarily even a question at that level. What does your employment contract say? Most companies claim ownership over anything you develop, particularly if it's related to ongoing business. In this case, since you probably would not have developed this equipment without the impetus of your company's customer's requirements.

If your company has such a clause, then you are obligated to give them the right of refusal.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[tctctraining]

There is no clause in my employment contract regarding ownership over anything I develop.

I can develop and make the test equipment in my basement and sell it to the customers through the company, or I can sell it to the company and let them sell it to the customers!!

I am not sure how I can discuss this with my Manager,

 

[msquared48]

Sounds like you either need to hammer out a contract with your "manager" as a consultant, or work within the confines of the company as an employee.

Mixing the two will get tricky to say the least.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[patprimmer]

I would not bother my manager directly unless he was very senior managment. I would go directly to senior managment for a policy decision on the reselling of ancillary products sourced from outside. If that met a favorable response, I would then broach the subject of moonlighting, then the conflict of interest then offer them the product at a price. Any stage, especially after determining they are interested in selling outside sourced ancillaries and the source of such ancillaries being you could get very tricky, depending on responses. Once the Gene sees a flas of daylight it will be very difficult to close the bottle in time.

If you go through your boss, he may put one hell of a lot of his own spin or opinion on it even though it may have little to do with him.

If you are to sell anything to your employers customers, even on your own time, IT MUST BE WITH THEIR DETAILED KNOWLEDGE AND EXPLICIT APPROVAL as you are using their data and time to generate the leads and as you work for them, anything you do involves their reputation.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm

for site rules

 

[jmw]

Really sounds like you need to tell us what country you are in because I'm pretty sure that some countries would consider that this is part of your job that you do for your employer.

Let us assume you make this test gear.

Option 1: You set yourself up as an independent manufacturer (you may need to be a separate entity able to test competitor equipment or other company's products).

Now that you've sold this to your employer or to the end user, what happens when you fail a piece of equipment and it costs your (former) employer money?
Who is your client?
Who is going to make you life the most difficult?

Now you could find yourself in a three cornered legal battle as to what the whether it is your tests, your equipment or the employer's equipment that is really at fault. This may end up in litigation and cost you more than you can afford who ever is right.

Your employer may decide in future to include an exclusion clause in their sales contract that specifically excludes any liability for or dependence on test conducted with your equipment.

At any time the employer may decide the cost is adding to the overall cost burden on a project (the customer has to pay) and decide to make their own test gear and leave you high and dry.

We could go on to construct a few different options.

In virtually any option there are just so may ways for things to go wrong that you really need to very best you can get of good will from your employer.

If they think you are taking advantage, they will mess you up good. They may let you have enough rope to hang yourself but they will mess you up.

Don't ever delude yourself that managers/employers will only ever work in the best interests of the company and that what you are doing is in the best interest of their company and you are safe. Management can turn vindictive and self destructive and get away with it. You may not survive it.

So if there is even the slightest chance that your employers will feel themselves taken advantage of, even losing profit that could have been theirs but is now yours, you can bet they may take it on the chin for the short term but mess you up in the longer term.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[JLSeagull]

Your on senses help to know if your actions smell a bit fishy. Add how you feel about it to hou yo think that management might feel. Our own senses make for a pretty good guide.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Heh, tell that to Madoff. On second thought, tell it to just about any CEO with a golden parachute milking the system for all of its worth.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[tctctraining]

I am a P.Eng. in canada.If I try to sell it to the company then it bring up the issue of how they will pay me??
I am a full time employee and to get paid I need to be a contractor or maybe there is another way??
I cant go after customers and sell it to them as it raises the issues of conflict of interest unless it is by my employer consent which I doubt they will grant me that.

The issue with liablity if the equipment fails is another concern, but if it's sold through the company then it will be their responsibility ,it will not create any life threatning concerns though.

 

[JLSeagull]

Crooks like Madoff and the corporate executives may be concerned about our ethics; but not with their own. They know about the smell too, they just don't care.

Few salaried engineers are into seven figures and up. Other fields than engineering are more likely to make you rich.

 

[IRstuff]

OK, you know all the parameters. Your choices are:

> Sell anyway
> Quit, and then sell
> Work the company to get approval to sell
> Forget about it

Seems to me that it's just a question of you picking a choice that you can live with, and only you can make that decision.



TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[MartinSr00]

I think the question is about what's ethical, not what is expedient. Given that:

Is it possible that you're using your position to the detriment of your employer? In essence, if you use any knowledge of customers or orders to use that on the outside to enrich yourself, wouldn't you be having your employer finance your marketing?

If this test equipment is related to your employer's business, even more so, if related at all to your duties, by witholding your know-how from the employer, and then making it available to the employer's customers at a price seems like a breach of your duty to your employee, absent the employer's express consent.

You could always short circuit the problem by quitting, and going into business on your own.

 

[tctctraining]

MartinSr00, good points.
However, this is not part of my normal duties and responsiblities to do such a thing. Nobody has asked me to do this, it takes me away from my normal duties therefore I need to work on it outside the normal business hours, since it's not a primary function of our business.

I am just providing some extra services that can bring us business and satisfy customers.
I have offered this to my manager but it seems to take him forever to come up with a solution.

 

[IRstuff]

That's relatively easy to deal with, assuming you don't care too much about bridges:

Just send "official" correspondence to the effect that you'll start your marketing activities on December 1, and if there is no response from the company, you'll assume that they have given their approval.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[MartinSr00]

My post was purposely posed as a line of questioning meant to start thinking. Please don't take it as a judgment -- it wasn't meant that way.

So you've disclosed, and you've offered.

And if it's not part of your paid duties, do it.

At least that seems to cover the ethical side. The legal side is something else. I'm not a lawyer so I wouldn't know that.

 

[GregLocock]

Not that simple. You've used company specs, and are about to use their contact list.

Having said that the company would be pretty dumb not to consider marketing your device, what benefit you get from that could vary from zip to their blessing on your venture.

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[patprimmer]

You even used the company time to see and asses the need for the device. They have some legitimate claim from an ethical point of view.

From a practical point of view your wife might market the product from leads you stole from the companies market knowledge.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm

for site rules

 

[jmw]

...the company would be pretty dumb not to consider marketing your device, what benefit you get from that could vary from zip to their blessing on your venture.

Sadly, dumb is a common commodity with managers, as is vindictiveness and plain stupidity.

Oh, and "Zip" isn't the worst response.
The worst response is to fire you and try to see you never work again in the industry, even if the company goes down in flames trying to achieve it. It's happened.

Never happy with the "If I don't hear from you I'll assume....".

I have offered this to my manager but it seems to take him forever to come up with a solution.

So what else is new?
If you expect management to make decisions about new things, or to answer you immediately, you need to try harder.

He has to authorise spending money.
That always involves lots of gazing into chicken entrails and lots of time.
He may only actually make the decision by himself if his job is threatened or when there are no choices left.

If you act he may react. Badly.

Your boss knows you think you have a solution.
But, he may have tasked someone whose job it is to do these things to do just that and he may not have bothered to explain that to you.

You'll look pretty silly if you burn some bridges and discover you have nothing to show for it.

So talk to him again and find out what he thinks about your proposal.



JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com