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CO2 expansion for water cooling... tips? 2

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GregLPease

Mechanical
Joined
May 23, 2005
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4
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US
Compressed CO2 from a tank at ~2700psi is released into a 1/8" OD copper pipe.

The 1/8" OD copper pipe travels to a 3" long, 2" OD copper cylinder.

This copper cylinder is submerged and centered in a 6" dia pipe flowing water at ambient temperatures and moderate flow rates. The cylinder is axially in-line with the flow.

Once in contact with the copper cylinder, the 1/8" OD copper pipe expands to 3/8" and wraps around the cylinder several times like a helix. It is in good thermal contact. The expansion causes the gas to cool and decrease the temperature of the cylinder and the surrounding water.

The 3/8" OD copper pipe then leaves the surface of the cylinder, exits the 6" pipe, and releases the compressed CO2 to the atmosphere.

My question is does this design maximize the heat transfer and cooling effects of the gas expansion? Would placing a restriction valve on the end of the pipe before it is released to the atmosphere improve the cooling performance? Any insights, ideas, or tips would be greatly appreciated.
 
Why is the cylinder there? The gas never goes through it, right? Sounds like it would work better if the cylinder were removed and let fluid flow through the coil of pipe.
 
Thanks for the response JStephen.

Good question.

The purpose of the copper cylinder is that we needed something with significant thermal mass. We are attempting to measure the temperature profile once the cooling is removed and the cylinder temperature returns to equilibrium with the water. The thermal mass of the cylinder would be less prone to insignificant influences and hopefully produce a more repeatable temperature profile over a longer period of time than the coils alone.

However, creating a significant temperature differential will require more cooling, CO2, and time because there is a large piece of copper to cool as well.

My colleague seams to believe adding a valve to the end of the 3/8" copper pipe before the CO2 is released to the atmosphere would allow for more efficient cooling at the point of expansion. I fail to see how increasing the downstream pressure would effect the cooling. Could anyone enlighten me? Or is this an unfounded hypothesis?
 
Greg:

You're new here and this is your first post. We need a lot more basic data from you in order to not only find out what you're trying to do, but also what your thermodynamic system is and its values. You don't tell us the temperatures and the initial and final pressures.

This CO2 could be liquefied or supercritical - all depending on the temperature that it exists at. And the product will be a mixture of solid dry ice and vapor or perhaps not - depending on the pressure it is expanded down to.

Is this an actual application or an academic problem? Please be specific in describing what it is that you are proposing or posing. We can help, but if you don't give specifics we will all start going around in circles and the scope will start to change ("the rest of the story"...)

I've expanded CO2 under every imanginable situation; in fact, I own a US Patent on just that. But I'll await your reply before giving this serious thought.
 
Montemayor:

I appreciate your response.

Yes, this is my first thread here. I stumbled upon this site while searching for some example real-world gas expansion and cooling applications.

The quality of the replies here and the high user activity is amazing. This is truly a great resource.

The project is an actual research based experimental application, not an academic problem.

The design has not been purchased/fabricated yet so real experimental temperatures and pressures data do not exist.

Additionally, I am not the primary designer for this project. However, I am trying to get a second opinion and hopefully some insight from people with more experience. Perhaps someone has worked with or designed something similar and could possibly give a quick "eng-tip".

I'm not asking for precise calculations or values, more for general design modifications or suggestions such as JStephen’s.

The design was a rather quick and dirty one based on basic physics fundamentals. It's meant to be cheap and simply act as a proof-of-theory. However, we may have missed an obvious or simple design element that could significantly improve the cooling performance of the CO2.

-CO2 tank @ 2700psi outdoors at ambient temperatures, valve opened
-CO2 is released into 1/8” OD copper pipe
-1/8” pipe enters 6” plastic pipe flowing water
-1/8” pipe reaches 2” dia copper cylinder centered and aligned axially with flow
-1/8” pipe expands to 3/8”
-3/8” pipe coils around cylinder then exits 6” plastic pipe
-3/8” pipe releases CO2 to atmosphere
-RTDs inside the cylinder monitor its temperate
-once a significant temperature differential is established, CO2 is shut off
-cylinder temperature over time is recorded as it returns to equilibrium with the flowing water

If the data I have provided is insufficient for any sort of serious suggestion or design tip I apologize and thank you for the time you spent reading this post.
 
Greg:

You still haven’t stated what your proposed goal is. For the sake of expediency, I’m forced to assume that you merely want to cool water in what would be described as a small-scale heat exchanger. You want to use liquid CO2 (LCO2) as a cooling source. Again, you fail to state your CO2 temperature as I requested so I have to assume you are using an un-conventional CO2 type of storage since you say the storage temperature is “ambient”. Assuming you are not in West Texas or Phoenix, Arizona, your ambient temperature is below 88 oF (the CO2 critical temperature) and the CO2 exists as saturated liquid at “ambient” temperature (say 85 oF). This is important to note, in case you are not aware of the thermodynamic state of the CO2. The normal method of storing or distributing CO2 has always been to use steel cylinders filled to 90% volume. Under these conditions, the CO2 is considered as High Pressure LCO2 (at 1,084 psig & saturated). The 10% vapor volume is for thermal expansion purposes. There is no practical need to fill a cylinder with a pressure exceeding its critical pressure of 1,084 psig. Why you are storing at 2,700 psig (and how you maintain that in a tank) is something of interest only because it is totally unconventional, unusual, and costly.

A common CO2 fire extinguisher is a perfect example of a conventional, HP CO2 storage cylinder. It would probably suit your purposes better, cheaper, and safer – unless there is a specific reason for your going into pressures above the critical pressure and yet staying below the supercritical phase zone. You don’t achieve the supercritical state with CO2 until you exceed the critical temperature of 88 oF – which I have assumed you stay below. This is the reason I solicited your basic data (temperatures & pressures); it makes all the difference in the world when you need to identify what thermodynamic phase(s) you are dealing with.

Now to describe to you what you will cause and what will happen when you set up your apparatus and open the LCO2 valve on the 1/8” OD copper tubing (I believe it is tubing, not pipe; pipe nominal diameters, while tubing is sized by its OD.). Expanding the 85 oF HP LCO2 down to essentially atmospheric pressure is going to produce a resultant 2-phase product of dry ice “snow” and CO2 gas at -109 oF. This mixture will have a propensity to plug up the rather small, 1/8” OD tubing. It will probably not be a continuous, steady-state flow due to the “sputtering” and plugging going through the tubing. The heat transfer effect by the dry ice snow will be another deterrent in having a good heat transfer effect. It is very difficult to ensure that the snow transfers its latent heat of sublimation. I have found this to be not only frustrating, but very inefficient. Any rough spots, sharp turns, valves, orifices in the tubing will make matters even worse as far as the plugging effect is concerned.

The product mixture you produce is the same thing that a CO2 fire extinguisher produces – except that you will notice that the fire extinguisher has a “horn”, a device that allows for easy dispersion of the solid snow produced by the adiabatic expansion of LCO2 and its conical shape deters any solid plugging downstream of the expansion valve – that’s the reason it’s shaped like it is.

Again, I don’t know your purpose, but you’ve picked a very tough fluid to expand and try to recover its cold effect. In my opinion, it’s the wrong fluid for trying to cool water but you probably have your reasons. Adiabatic expansion of LCO2 always produces a (solid + gas) mixture that is very difficult to control. The crystalline structure of dry ice snow literally has what looks like “barbs” on its surface and this contributes to its ability to form difficult and troublesome clogs that are a deterrent to steady-state flow. And I can personally attest to the difficulty of trying to “melt” (actually, sublime) away the solid blockage using external heating fluids such as water or hot gases. As the solid snow sublimes in the warm or hot surface area it is touching, it forms a gaseous CO2 film that is a natural, excellent insulator. This effect, besides the plugging, is yet another heat transfer problem to expect.

I’m sorry if I’m a bearer of sad news, but what I’ve learned after working with CO2 and Dry Ice for over 25 years is that it isn’t as simple and easy as you first imagine. You have to get deep into the actual Thermodynamic realities of the physical phases involved and the crystalline structures of the compounds.

I hope this hands-on experience of many years is of some help to you in arriving at a successful application. And do not contemplate putting a restriction valve on the 1/8” OD tubing without having everything upstream capable of resisting the full 2,700 psig of your CO2 storage – because it will plug up and effectively block all flow.

Good Luck!
 
Montemayor:

Your post is chalk full of great information. It was even more than I was looking for and I really appreciate the time you took to write back.

Regarding the sputtering: in your experience would simply increasing the tubing diameter help much with attaining a stead-state flow and reducing dry ice build up on the walls and thus cut down on the negative heat transfer effects?

How about using a CO2 bath/slurry or switching to N2 or another inert gas? Or would this introduce a whole slew of new problems/issues?

The CO2 will be turned on only long enough to cool the submerged copper cylinder to a temperature significantly less than the water upstream (several degrees). Then, the CO2 cooling is turned off and the temperature of the cylinder is monitored and recorded using imbedded RTDs as the cylinder warms back up and returns to equilibrium with the flowing water around it. This small scale heat exchanger is strictly for experimental data acquisition and is not attempting to perform a typical real-world process.

I apologize for my lack of basic data. The CO2 would most likely be under the conventional conditions you specified (HP LCO2 @ 1,084 psig, saturated, and in the shade to insure sub-supercritical temperatures). It is indeed cooling both the cylinder and the water, so your assumption for the sake of expediency is perfectly valid.

Thanks again Montemayor. You have already been more than helpful.
 
Greg:

Sorry for being delayed in answering your follow-up questions. My granddaughters have arrived for their 6-weeks’ summer stay and they are priority #1 for now.

Expanding LCO2 into a larger tube will not help you out as much as you visualize. All you’ll create is larger “snow drifts” of dry ice snow. I realize this may be hard to imagine or visualize, but it is real and it happens all the time. I’ve even built lab-scale glass models to show junior engineers this phenomena. You create a 2-phase (solid+gas) flow system where the solid is a pain in the backside because it doesn’t flow as you wish it to. Nor does it sublime when and how you want it to. If you are familiar with Husky sled dogs used in Canada and Alaska, you can appreciate what I am telling you: these dogs will bed down in the middle of a -50 oF blizzard OUTSIDE, without any wind or thermal protection. Their secret to survival in these horrendous conditions is their fur and, more importantly, the large amount of snow that drifts and covers them up totally. This snow acts as an efficient thermal insulator, lowering the temperature around their body to a “warm” +30-32 oF. The same thing happens with dry ice snow. The surface where it piles up (or “drifts”) suffers in heat transfer because it winds up being insulated by the sublimed CO2 gas which starts out as -109 oF gas but warms up and stays around, trapped by the solid snow, acting as an effective insulator against further sublimation. Unless you can create convection currents through the dry ice snow, you will labor and fail in efficiently getting rid of this troublesome solid matter through natural sublimation.

Your question about using a CO2 bath/slurry or switching to N2 or another inert gas is a far better heat transfer scenario than the 2-phase CO2 mixture you have initially proposed. However, bear in mind that you must do your thermodynamic homework and have a complete domination of the various phases of CO2 that are possible and what conditions give you the best, controllable heat transfer situation. Through experience, it is known that one of the most efficient ways to “extract” cold from CO2 is to employ a saturated LCO2 fluid (usually at -20 oF & 200 psig) and vaporize it by cooling another fluid – in your case, the water. However, two problems elevate their ugly head in this type of heat transfer: your heat exchanger has to withstand 200 psig and your water must be kept flowing fast in order to avoid freezing to a solid (@ -20 oF). Switching to cooling with another gas would be easier from the point of view of not having to engineer around the existence of a solid phase. However, what would be the temperature of the gas selected? If the temperature of the gas were 32 oF or slightly higher, it would be almost perfect to avoid any water freeze up.

Another way to cool your water –albeit very wasteful – is to separate the solid dry ice snow from the saturated, cold vapor (@ -109 oF) and use only the cold vapor as your cooling fluid. This means wasting the solid portion of the expanded LCO2. I remember this amount of dry ice snow is approximately 55-60% of the LCO2 expanded. That means you will only be using about 40% of the amount expanded. Segregation of the solid snow is only one problem. The next problem is getting it disposed or out of the way. If your experiment doesn’t last too long, you may be able to simple design an over-sized separator that stores the amount of snow long enough to make and terminate your runs. Getting a sticky, tacky dry ice snow out of a process system is a big, big problem if you have to do it under steady-state conditions. I’ve never seen or heard of this being done successfully.

As I’ve said, if you closely study the CO2 Mollier diagram or its T-S chart, you will quickly become aware that you have a potentially troublesome and challenging fluid on your hands. CO2 is attractive because it is cheap, plentiful, available everywhere, inert, and yields cryogenic temperatures. However, as you would expect as an engineer, there are some notorious Trade-Offs to contend with.

I hope this response answers or addresses your additional queries and concerns.

Art Montemayor
 
UncleSyd:

I'm glad you said that! That way I could sell him a model of my Dry Ice Pelletizer (US Patent # 5,385,023) that not only will produce up to 1,000 kg/hr, but will recover all of the expanded revert gas. Average conversion of LCO2 to Dry Ice pellets is 98% (most of the 2% is sublimation handling losses).

 
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