Carbon treating sword blades 2

[floattuber]

My materials engineering friend and I were having a conversation about carbon treating sword blades. I had recalled that one of my professors said that in medieval times sword makers would plunge hot sword blades into pigs so that the fat would carbon treat the metal. My friend didn't think there would be enough time for the carbon to migrate into the metal and that the purpose was to merely rapidly quench the blade.

Anybody else heard this or did I misunderstand my professor during his lecture.

 

[MikeHalloran]

I'd call it a controlled quench, since a live pig would have a standardized body temperature.

The organic quench might offset some of the surface decarburization that would otherwise occur.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[ScottyUK]

Mike,

Does plunging a glowing sword blank into a live pig seem vaguely barbaric?

Not sure where you are in the world but the History Channel showed an interesting series on some of the skilled craftsmen from history. The swordmaking one is repeated soon:

http://www.thehistorychannel.co.uk/site/tv_guide/full_details/People/programme_2335.php

----------------------------------

Sometimes I only open my mouth to swap feet...

 

[GregLocock]

I'd have thought a pig was far too valuable to waste.

Although, of course, it can still be eaten, but that is not a great way to kill a pig for eating.

I'd guess it was just an urban legend, although I suppose somebody, some time, would have tried it.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[TheTick]

Probably some ill-informed attempt to explain the origins of the term pig iron. Pig iron is derived from word pygg, which means "clay".

Any credible documentation on the "pig quenching" method out there?

 

[GregLocock]

Why would a live pig be better than a recently killed dead pig?

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[MikeHalloran]

I forgot to mention that "carbon treating" would be redundant, because medieval swords had very high levels of carbon throughout. Hence my thought that an organic quenching medium might partially offset decarburization.

What better way to provide a controlled temperature of the quenching medium would be available to a medieval armorer?

Costly consumables are accepted as part of the cost of making first class arms even today.

Of course "pig quenching" sounds barbaric.

So does "pig roasting".

I ate roast pig at Christmas.

I'm sure the pig was none too pleased.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[GregLocock]

Well, just from a practical perspective, as I keep saying, killing a pig by skewering it with a red hot sword is bad butchering practice, and probably not too great from a Health and Safety perspective (This is Lefty, my pig handler)

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[MikeHalloran]

Absolutely true, not good butchering practice.

But the objective of the exercise is quenching the sword, not butchering the pig. The pig would be discarded as process waste.

I'm sure the peasants would redirect the armorer's waste stream, clean and dress the remainder of the pig, and roast it properly.

And if a Public Health Official jumped out of a time machine and had a problem with that, they'd clean, dress and roast him, too. No sense in wasting all that protein.




Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[Jordonlaw]

Why waste a valuable resourse like a pig ? Better to use a politician or lawer.

 

[0707]

For the sake of pigs, politicians and lawyers for tempering hot swords is better to deep them into quench oil.

Cheers

Luis

 

[jmw]

OH! That kind of pig. I was wondering where medieval armourers would find a pipeline from which to extract the pig.

On the subject of Pig Roasts, can I refer you to MARINE GUIDANCE NOTE MGN 222 (M+F)

USE OF BARBEQUES (BBQ's) AND PIG ROASTS ON SHIPS AND FISHING VESSELS

Notice to Ship and Fishing Vessels Owners, Ship and Fishing Vessel Operators, Managers, Seafarers and Fishermen

I assume these to be the aquatic breed of pigs and are the victims of modern fishing methods. I guess they are best cooked and eaten when caught.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[0707]

Hey Teacher! live the pigs alone...

 

[drawoh]

My metallurgy teacher in college claimed they used a nice, fat slave. Why waste a pig?

I saw something on TV about japanese swords being heat treated this way.

A lot of historical claims like this can be worked out by looking at the logistics. Something like ten percent of Japan's population were samauri. You figure that each one needs more than one sword, that means they expend a lot of slaves, very likely, more than were available.

JHG

 

[0707]

drawoh

Your teacher was from the South of US.

wasn´t he?

Cheers

Luis

 

[floattuber]

This light hearted thread is turning out much more funny than I thought it would be.

On a side note, barbaric acts in medieval times?!?! It can't be...!

 

[dik]

I had heard that they used slaves...

Dik

 

[0707]

The Gallic’s they had great predilection to eat wild boars. To temper its swords they had for habit to use Romans.

luis

 

[BJC]

I read one acount of a sword maker that use the urine of a small boy for tempering swords. I forget the exact age but older was not supposed to have amonia in his urine. Does that make any sense?

 

[DaveVikingPE]

I prefer a double-bladed battleaxe or a warhammer.