Tek-Tips is the largest IT community on the Internet today!
Members share and learn making Tek-Tips Forums the best source of peer-reviewed technical information on the Internet!
-
Congratulations TugboatEng on being selected by the Eng-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!
buildings with highest number dry valves 2
- Thread starter crb7
- Start date
-
1
- #3
SprinklerDesigner2
Mechanical
Had a 500,000 sq ft building with 16 dry systems.
Building was unheated and used for solid pile storage of Class I through Class IV commodity with the bottom of steel joists at 21' AFF so storage height was limited to 20 foot max.
Building was unheated and used for solid pile storage of Class I through Class IV commodity with the bottom of steel joists at 21' AFF so storage height was limited to 20 foot max.
- Thread starter
- #4
-
1
- #5
Crb7
In the USA dry pipe sprinkler systems are everywhere where heat is not available, to list the info you need for your report would be a few million pages long! Dry pipe sprinkler systems are the second most popular sprinkler system with a wet pipe system being number one. Our building codes require automatic sprinkler protection based on occupancy, building construction, square footage, number of stories, etc. These requirements are NOT waived if the building and or area is not heated. The number of sprinkler systems required is based on the occupancy and square footage of the building from 40,000 sq.ft. to 52,000 sq. ft. by NFPA 13. A 120,000 sq. ft. non heated warehouse would require a minimum of 3 dry pipe sprinkler risers with each system protecting 40,000 sq. ft. Occupancies examples can include parking garages, warehouses, industrial buildings, attics of hotels, power plants, etc etc.
I was in the insurance loss prevention side of the business for 30 plus years in New Jersey and I encountered dry pipe systems on a daily bases during my site inspections. I hope this helps.
In the USA dry pipe sprinkler systems are everywhere where heat is not available, to list the info you need for your report would be a few million pages long! Dry pipe sprinkler systems are the second most popular sprinkler system with a wet pipe system being number one. Our building codes require automatic sprinkler protection based on occupancy, building construction, square footage, number of stories, etc. These requirements are NOT waived if the building and or area is not heated. The number of sprinkler systems required is based on the occupancy and square footage of the building from 40,000 sq.ft. to 52,000 sq. ft. by NFPA 13. A 120,000 sq. ft. non heated warehouse would require a minimum of 3 dry pipe sprinkler risers with each system protecting 40,000 sq. ft. Occupancies examples can include parking garages, warehouses, industrial buildings, attics of hotels, power plants, etc etc.
I was in the insurance loss prevention side of the business for 30 plus years in New Jersey and I encountered dry pipe systems on a daily bases during my site inspections. I hope this helps.
- Thread starter
- #6
TravisMack
Mechanical
What is this report for? The request seems odd.
I'm sure any one on this forum could provide 5 projects with dry systems.
Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC
"Follow" us at
I'm sure any one on this forum could provide 5 projects with dry systems.
Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC
"Follow" us at
stookeyfpe
Specifier/Regulator
I'll ask the question in a different manner. Why do you need this report and what is desired conclusion? I see you're dealing with a storage occupancy. I have a high rise building with 11 floors of parking garages and we employed seven DPVs and PRVs because it's in a 66 story high rise building. My building is classified as a storage and residential occupancy.
- Thread starter
- #9
Travis, I know this is odd. My boss asked me for this kind of report, because we had a 6 floors parking project and we use 12 dry valves. He wants to give this report to builder to convince him that, 12 dry valves is not so many for this kind of project. He needs some example for this, because in my city this number of dry valves are so many. I need names of projects with 12 plus dry valves. I will appreciate that.
thank you stookeyfpe
thank you stookeyfpe
CRB
The number of risers is based on NFPA 13 in the USA. A parking garage is an ordinary hazard per NFPA as such the maximum 1 dry pipe valve can cover is 52,000 sq. ft of floor area, see below.
NFPA 13, 2013 Ed
8.2.1 The maximum floor area on any one floor to be protected by sprinklers supplied by any one sprinkler system riser or combined system riser shall be as follows:
(1) Light hazard — 52,000 ft2 (4831 m2)
(2) Ordinary hazard — 52,000 ft2 (4831 m2)
So as cdafd asked how many sq. ft. is each floor area in the garage??
All you need to do is reference the above code section to justify the number of risers required.
The number of risers is based on NFPA 13 in the USA. A parking garage is an ordinary hazard per NFPA as such the maximum 1 dry pipe valve can cover is 52,000 sq. ft of floor area, see below.
NFPA 13, 2013 Ed
8.2.1 The maximum floor area on any one floor to be protected by sprinklers supplied by any one sprinkler system riser or combined system riser shall be as follows:
(1) Light hazard — 52,000 ft2 (4831 m2)
(2) Ordinary hazard — 52,000 ft2 (4831 m2)
So as cdafd asked how many sq. ft. is each floor area in the garage??
All you need to do is reference the above code section to justify the number of risers required.
MatthewJWillis
Mechanical
I just don't know what the name and address would have to do with it.
Each location is different. So not only if you follow the basic 52,000 sq. ft. or 40,000 sq. ft., each water supply is different, leading to increased pipe sizing, leading to larger volumes, leading to 60 second trip limitations or adding another valve... Zoning is different and may be required based on building use and or local adoptions/amendments, leading to more valves.
In other words, I feel your report is a non-stater for justification for anything.
Let's try your request in a different manner:
We have a 6 floor parking garage, each floor is xx,xxx sq. ft.
We used 2 dry valves per level.
Water supply is thus xx static xx residual, generating xxx gpm.
Does this sound like a high number of valves?
R/
Matt
Each location is different. So not only if you follow the basic 52,000 sq. ft. or 40,000 sq. ft., each water supply is different, leading to increased pipe sizing, leading to larger volumes, leading to 60 second trip limitations or adding another valve... Zoning is different and may be required based on building use and or local adoptions/amendments, leading to more valves.
In other words, I feel your report is a non-stater for justification for anything.
Let's try your request in a different manner:
We have a 6 floor parking garage, each floor is xx,xxx sq. ft.
We used 2 dry valves per level.
Water supply is thus xx static xx residual, generating xxx gpm.
Does this sound like a high number of valves?
R/
Matt
stookeyfpe
Specifier/Regulator
The issue is not the number of DPV but the hazard and the design basis. Is the design based on the system volume and throwing a quick operating device on it? Maybe, but if the system volume is large and the pipe layout creates a lot of volume, it may be very difficult to obtain water delivery in 60 seconds. Or is it high piled combustible storage and the designer chose to calculate the water delivery time? Or is it refrigerated storage where the effort needs to focus on clean, dry air (or nitrogen) in conjunction with a pre-action design to prevent accidental activation?
I think we answered the question because it sound's like a parking garage but I'm speculating. I also suspect a language barrier so I sense the challenge is conveying the message. No penalty on the original poster - he/she is seeking information on an internet forum.
Finally, I sense the GC is playing value engineer because he/she doesn't know anything about fire protection but is seeing 12 valves when on the last job they did it with 8.
I think we answered the question because it sound's like a parking garage but I'm speculating. I also suspect a language barrier so I sense the challenge is conveying the message. No penalty on the original poster - he/she is seeking information on an internet forum.
Finally, I sense the GC is playing value engineer because he/she doesn't know anything about fire protection but is seeing 12 valves when on the last job they did it with 8.
- Thread starter
- #14
tnx engineers
I know NFPA clauses and I use it for designing my project plan. But the problem is my project manager and the country which I live. I have to give him some true example instead of calculations and NFPA rules.
So I simply asked for your project names and numbers of dry alarm valves, so that I can give the project manager examples and calculations to convince him.
I know NFPA clauses and I use it for designing my project plan. But the problem is my project manager and the country which I live. I have to give him some true example instead of calculations and NFPA rules.
So I simply asked for your project names and numbers of dry alarm valves, so that I can give the project manager examples and calculations to convince him.
- Thread starter
- #16
SprinklerDesigner2
Mechanical
crb7 (Mechanical)(OP)5 Aug 18 09:05
104,000 sq ft in each and there are 6 floors
In a perfectly symmetrical building the minimum number you can have is 12 but it's more likely that it's not not you're going to have three systems on each floor for a total of 18 dry valves.
You reported that you had a total of 12 valves on this project and that's about perfectly done.
104,000 sq ft in each and there are 6 floors
In a perfectly symmetrical building the minimum number you can have is 12 but it's more likely that it's not not you're going to have three systems on each floor for a total of 18 dry valves.
You reported that you had a total of 12 valves on this project and that's about perfectly done.
AND depending on the water supply you may not meet the one minute time limit as per NFPA 13 to get water to the end of the each system. You may need 3 or perhaps 4 dry valves per floor.
Soooo to give you jobs where 12 valves worked means nothing unless you have a similar floor layout, sprinkler piping the same size AND water supply.
Soooo to give you jobs where 12 valves worked means nothing unless you have a similar floor layout, sprinkler piping the same size AND water supply.
- Thread starter
- #19
We have a rule which permits us up to 2 minutes for water delivery in sprinklers. We tested our system and it worked properly. It is good to say that we used solenoid valves and quick opening devices in dry valve systems to reach 2 minutes water delivery.
But still I don't get the answer for my question. I need locations and names of projects with more than 10 dry valves, so that we can tell our project manager that how proper work is done by us.
TNX
But still I don't get the answer for my question. I need locations and names of projects with more than 10 dry valves, so that we can tell our project manager that how proper work is done by us.
TNX
- Status
Similar threads
- Question
- Locked
- Question