brick veneer support at sides of dormers 2

[henryd]

I have been searching through the BIA Technical Notes for a recommended detail for supporting brick veneer on the sides of a dormer...is there a preferred way? (see attached image)

Thanks

 

[msquared48]

I would use a angle 3X3X3/16 with lag screws to the studs and periodic 3/16" vertical steel plate tabs welded to the angle, in line with the mortar joints between the bricks, to keep the bricks from sliding.

If the bricks have holes, short lengths of field welded vertical rebar would suffice in lieu of the tabs.

Proper flashing would be imperitive to prevent leaks here - an obvious placed to develop.

The rafters under the wall should be designed to L/600 minimum.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask

 

[KootK]

Isn't there an IBC requirement in the US that precludes supporting masonry on wood?

 

[hokie66]

I wouldn't even consider putting brick there.

 

[COEngineeer]

Personally, if it is realy brick, I would continue it down to the floor and support the brick with horizontal beam. If it is just a thin fascia, I would trust that it would adhere to the wall and wont slide down. What Mike McCann suggested would work too but I think what I suggested is cheaper and easier to build. Flashing is important, you dont want the brick to be in direct contact with the wood beam.

Never, but never question engineer's judgment

 

[SkiisAndBikes]

I have encountered this detail before. Typically I have seen the brick veneer continue down to a stiff horizontal steel beam within the floor system below. Often the hidden portion of the brick, below roof level, is replaced with 4" block. Therefore, the masons are building up from a horizontal platform.

Detailing for the inevitable moisture penetration behind the brick veneer is critical.

 

[henryd]

Thanks for the replies...

I was hoping I could put thin brick adhered to durock on the sides, but the brick I am using doesn't come in thin brick. Also, the sidewalls aren't going down to the floor so I can't support from the floor. It's not that much brick so I think my two solutions are either Mike McCann's suggestion of the angle with welded steel plates bolted to the stud or...convince the owner that he really doesn't need to see brick on the side of his dormers

http://www.tipmaster.com/images/bigsmile.gif

 

[concretemasonry]

You can support masonry on wood. It is done routinely on 3 and 4 story wood structures at the horizontal ledgers used for for fighting the expansion vertically with expansion joints. Brick expands over time and wood shrinks. The intent of the idea is that no bearing masonry masonry should be supported by wood. The structure must be adequate to carry the imposed loads, whether brick veneer, water beds live loads or other dead loads. - What about a structure on wood piles?

Either the angled steel member with tabs or going down to a satisfactory horizontal member to build off of are common solutions depending on the conditions, and details necessary.

The key is proper flashing to prevent water penetration.

Dick

Engineer and international traveler interested in construction techniques, problems and proper design.

 

[SkiisAndBikes]

henryd,

When the brick veneer/concrete block extends down to a beam in the floor system, there is no need for the wood framed wall to continue down. The unsupported height of the block below roof level would max out at like 4 ft or so.

 

[hokie66]

S&B,
If you look at the perspective posted by henryd, it is obvious that the dormers are roof projections only. Nothing extends below the ceiling.

 

[ToadJones]

I have built a bunch of single family homes like this...built, not designed.
I never liked building the dormer on top of the rafters. 9 times out of 10, there is a knee wall inside anyway, so building them on top was really of no benefit as far as space goes.
I'm with Hokie on his original post, I wouldn't even consider brick here. The last few houses I built like that, I convinced the owner to use Dryvit, lick'em stick'em stones or a high-end siding. There is just too much movement up there.

 

[boo1]

Prefer Stucco for this detail.

But, we have used 4x4x3/16 painted steel angle (w no tabs) for cases like this. Lag every stud, solid blocking 2x8 on edge beween studs, 16x16 bent edge Galv flashing over 36" peel and seal underlayment. Enshure the truss at each dormer edge is designed for the DL or triple the trim rafter.

 

[COEngineeer]

If the owners want bricks, then give them what they want. It is your job to make it happens.

Never, but never question engineer's judgment

 

[ToadJones]

It is also the job of the engineer to advise against poor details.
...just sayin'.

 

[COEngineeer]

But it is the engineer's job to do the details. He just have to make sure he detailed it correctly.

I see this all the time. Architect wants a brick chimney sticking out the roof, but if you go to the inside of the building, there is no fireplace. The chimney is on a pretty steep slope. Now, do you want to keep telling your architec clients that you cant do that? How are you going to get their business again?

Never, but never question engineer's judgment

 

[ToadJones]

COE-
I agree, I was merely suggesting that he at least suggest what might be a more feasible solution. If it is bricks he wants, well, bricks he shall have....and cracks.

 

[henryd]

Those darn Architects ...always screwing things up!

Hey that's me!...I'm an Architect, but I have always considered a good engineer and builder to be my best friends.

 

[ToadJones]

Get out of here architect!!!!

 

[bdSE]

Most of the suggestions here are very good, I would rank them in this order...
1. Chose another finish other than brick for the sides of the dormers. (Still keeping the face of the dormer in brick)
2. Go with the custom sloping steel brick angle with lagged to the dormer studs which are carried by the roof rafter at a very stiff L/600 or better.
3. Thin-Brick "Lick 'n Stick". I realize that you said it is not available, but have you considered the possibility of having thin brick made for your application? It may be possible to have the mason slice the faces off the full brick to create your own custom thin-brick...labor intensive, but might workout to be similar in intensity to the custom steel lintel design.

 

[ToadJones]

I do not think cutting your own brick will work. The brick will not hold up.