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A boiler gets another one or money kills another one.
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Boiler Explosion 4
- Thread starter unclesyd
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Relating to this article, I have a few questions for this forum.
The South Carolina State newspaper article cites only a few boiler explosions in recent history. South Carolina has never legislated a boiler inspection program. In states that have regular boiler inspections, do boiler explosions never occur? And a second question: Why do states directly inspect boiler instead of mandating that the insurance companies of the insured boiler facililities do so?
I would think that a company like The Hartford, that is already performing inspections for clients for National Board certification, would be far better qualified than a state employee whos background and experience may not be as well documented.
The article insinuates that, had South Carolina had a boiler inspection program, then this particular boiler explosion on March 30 might not have happened. What I don't understand is if this boiler operator, Mr. Javis, who had years of experience operating boilers in industry and with the Navy, and who was known to be very dedicated to his job and "his boilers": if he obviously couldn't prevent this explosion from occuring then is it reasonable to assume that periodic visits by a state employee would have made a difference?
The states are good a policing highways, maintaining roads (somewhat), and teaching children: I just can't see any justification for their role in the boiler rooms of private industries. How did this get started in the first place? Oh yeah...eminent domain.
S. Bush
The South Carolina State newspaper article cites only a few boiler explosions in recent history. South Carolina has never legislated a boiler inspection program. In states that have regular boiler inspections, do boiler explosions never occur? And a second question: Why do states directly inspect boiler instead of mandating that the insurance companies of the insured boiler facililities do so?
I would think that a company like The Hartford, that is already performing inspections for clients for National Board certification, would be far better qualified than a state employee whos background and experience may not be as well documented.
The article insinuates that, had South Carolina had a boiler inspection program, then this particular boiler explosion on March 30 might not have happened. What I don't understand is if this boiler operator, Mr. Javis, who had years of experience operating boilers in industry and with the Navy, and who was known to be very dedicated to his job and "his boilers": if he obviously couldn't prevent this explosion from occuring then is it reasonable to assume that periodic visits by a state employee would have made a difference?
The states are good a policing highways, maintaining roads (somewhat), and teaching children: I just can't see any justification for their role in the boiler rooms of private industries. How did this get started in the first place? Oh yeah...eminent domain.
S. Bush
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Here my comments to your questions;
1."Why do states directly inspect boiler instead of mandating that the insurance companies of the insured boiler facilities do so?" Ans. The States that have Boiler and Pressure Vessel laws do indeed allow for qualified inspection agencies (agencies that have National Board commissioned Inspectors) to perform Jurisdictional (boiler/pressure vessel) Inspections to obtain Operating Certificates for objects, and perform other inspection matters on behalf of the State Inspectors. Most States have a boiler or safety department with National Board commissioned Inspectors to regulate the many thousands of object inspections in their State. This is NO small task.
2. "I would think that a company like The Hartford, that is already performing inspections for clients for National Board certification, would be far better qualified than a state employee whose background and experience may not be as well documented." Ans. This statement is not correct. Most State agencies will hire experienced insurance agency Inspectors (20+ years ) because the pay and benefits are better as offered by the State in comparison to inspection companies.
3. "then is it reasonable to assume that periodic visits by a state employee would have made a difference? Ans. Not all accidents can be prevented by Jurisdictional inspections. However, I will say that as someone who deals with these matters and attends National Board meetings across the US, having a State Agency that regulates boilers and pressure vessels provides a better margin for public safety in comparison to a State that has no public guardian for boiler or pressure vessel safety!
1."Why do states directly inspect boiler instead of mandating that the insurance companies of the insured boiler facilities do so?" Ans. The States that have Boiler and Pressure Vessel laws do indeed allow for qualified inspection agencies (agencies that have National Board commissioned Inspectors) to perform Jurisdictional (boiler/pressure vessel) Inspections to obtain Operating Certificates for objects, and perform other inspection matters on behalf of the State Inspectors. Most States have a boiler or safety department with National Board commissioned Inspectors to regulate the many thousands of object inspections in their State. This is NO small task.
2. "I would think that a company like The Hartford, that is already performing inspections for clients for National Board certification, would be far better qualified than a state employee whose background and experience may not be as well documented." Ans. This statement is not correct. Most State agencies will hire experienced insurance agency Inspectors (20+ years ) because the pay and benefits are better as offered by the State in comparison to inspection companies.
3. "then is it reasonable to assume that periodic visits by a state employee would have made a difference? Ans. Not all accidents can be prevented by Jurisdictional inspections. However, I will say that as someone who deals with these matters and attends National Board meetings across the US, having a State Agency that regulates boilers and pressure vessels provides a better margin for public safety in comparison to a State that has no public guardian for boiler or pressure vessel safety!
And, as for your last question - how did this get started in the first place? It's not eminent domain, but because boiler explosions were a routine occurence many decades ago and a lot of people were killed by them.
As with most of the regulations we have in place today, the reason we have them is usually because of dead people.
Edward L. Klein
Pipe Stress Engineer
Houston, Texas
"All the world is a Spring"
All opinions expressed here are my own and not my company's.
As with most of the regulations we have in place today, the reason we have them is usually because of dead people.
Edward L. Klein
Pipe Stress Engineer
Houston, Texas
"All the world is a Spring"
All opinions expressed here are my own and not my company's.
Thanks for your responses. Now, let's see if I've got this right:
1. Boiler explosions and fatalities used to be quite common, until the states (with the exception of renegade South Carolina...they don't even inspect automobiles!!! Ever!!!) mandated periodic inspections;
2. Even though the insurance industry can and will inspect boiler for their clients (and, I assume could do so if mandated by state law), it is important for the program to be run by a state government agency because this generates jobs for former insurance industry employees who are attracted by the security of a state job, pension and benefit over private industry where there is this thing called "market competition" and, instead of the companies who benefit from the boilers paying the cost of these inspections, we the taxpayer should share the load because...well just because...that's what we do...we pay taxes...and we know that someone's out there looking out us.
Okay. I've got it. Thanks!
S. Bush
1. Boiler explosions and fatalities used to be quite common, until the states (with the exception of renegade South Carolina...they don't even inspect automobiles!!! Ever!!!) mandated periodic inspections;
2. Even though the insurance industry can and will inspect boiler for their clients (and, I assume could do so if mandated by state law), it is important for the program to be run by a state government agency because this generates jobs for former insurance industry employees who are attracted by the security of a state job, pension and benefit over private industry where there is this thing called "market competition" and, instead of the companies who benefit from the boilers paying the cost of these inspections, we the taxpayer should share the load because...well just because...that's what we do...we pay taxes...and we know that someone's out there looking out us.
Okay. I've got it. Thanks!
S. Bush
I want to apologize. After reading my last post, I realized that it was a bit sarcastic. I was being feces-us (Is that the right word?).
I think everyone would agree that inspections are necessary. I just don't agree on the current method for acheiving the same end.
Forgive me. I'm still reeling from paying my taxes...Ouch!
I'll go away now.
S. Bush
I think everyone would agree that inspections are necessary. I just don't agree on the current method for acheiving the same end.
Forgive me. I'm still reeling from paying my taxes...Ouch!
I'll go away now.
S. Bush
GeneratorGrrl
Mechanical
This is quite a fascinating topic. Alberta has had a boiler safety association for 108 years, so I was quite unaware that anywhere in the First World would still be without such a regulating body.
Also very interesting is the repeated mention insurance companies. Up here, insurance companies do not inspect boilers and have nothing to do with boiler safety regulations. Same with hiring insurance inspectors or government employees as boiler inspectors.
In most provinces of Canada, boiler safety inspectors are drawn from the power engineering industry. In Alberta, a boiler safety inspector must have held a First Class certificate of competancy for some years before s/he may take the boiler safety inspector schooling and apply to the Boiler Safety Association.
I'm not fully familiar with how the power engineering syllabus is handled in the states; in Canada, power engineering is a laddered syllabus requiring both schooling and a certain number of years' hands-on experience before one is eligible to qualify for the next level certificate. In the current syllabus, 6 months' assisting in a heating plant is required for the newbie to qualify for the 5th Class power engineer certificate (the lowest rung), then an additional year is required before s/he can qualify for the 4th Class certificate. Then, the 4th Class holder must work 3 years in a high-pressure power, co-gen or heating plant in order to qualify for 3rd Class. An additional 5 years for 2nd Class and 5 more years after that before the prospect can attain his/her First Class certificate -- so right away, the First Class power engineer comes with almost twenty years of experience (that's if they pushed themselves.) *Then* s/he has to put in a few more years as a First Class holder, plus take some special schooling courses, before the provincial Boiler Safety Association will consider him/her as an inspector (that's why they all have grey hair ^.~ )
So this discussion is most fascinating. I've quite enjoyed the helpfulness of my regional inspectors; they're very willing to share their experience and teach me about the flaws they're looking for.
Thanks to all
"Eat well, exercise regularly, die anyways."
Also very interesting is the repeated mention insurance companies. Up here, insurance companies do not inspect boilers and have nothing to do with boiler safety regulations. Same with hiring insurance inspectors or government employees as boiler inspectors.
In most provinces of Canada, boiler safety inspectors are drawn from the power engineering industry. In Alberta, a boiler safety inspector must have held a First Class certificate of competancy for some years before s/he may take the boiler safety inspector schooling and apply to the Boiler Safety Association.
I'm not fully familiar with how the power engineering syllabus is handled in the states; in Canada, power engineering is a laddered syllabus requiring both schooling and a certain number of years' hands-on experience before one is eligible to qualify for the next level certificate. In the current syllabus, 6 months' assisting in a heating plant is required for the newbie to qualify for the 5th Class power engineer certificate (the lowest rung), then an additional year is required before s/he can qualify for the 4th Class certificate. Then, the 4th Class holder must work 3 years in a high-pressure power, co-gen or heating plant in order to qualify for 3rd Class. An additional 5 years for 2nd Class and 5 more years after that before the prospect can attain his/her First Class certificate -- so right away, the First Class power engineer comes with almost twenty years of experience (that's if they pushed themselves.) *Then* s/he has to put in a few more years as a First Class holder, plus take some special schooling courses, before the provincial Boiler Safety Association will consider him/her as an inspector (that's why they all have grey hair ^.~ )
So this discussion is most fascinating. I've quite enjoyed the helpfulness of my regional inspectors; they're very willing to share their experience and teach me about the flaws they're looking for.
Thanks to all
"Eat well, exercise regularly, die anyways."
To Generatorgrrl:
1. In Alberta, is the Boiler Safety Association a government agency or private organization(non-profit or for-profit)like the NSF or ASME here in the states? Who ultimately pays for the inspection service: the boiler owner or private citizens?
2. Do inspectors challenge safety devices (like overpressurizing a relief valve to verify that it works at the set pressure), X-ray welds, test metal thickness? What exactly do they do when they carry out an inspection (just the high points)? Do they carry out inspections on live boilers or only during shutdown/opened up (belly of the whale so to speak)conditions or both?
3. What exactly causes a boiler to explode? Overpressurization due to tube failure(s)? Ignition of fuel? Safety relief valve failure to open?
4. How often do boiler explosions occur in Canada (rough estimate)?
S. Bush
1. In Alberta, is the Boiler Safety Association a government agency or private organization(non-profit or for-profit)like the NSF or ASME here in the states? Who ultimately pays for the inspection service: the boiler owner or private citizens?
2. Do inspectors challenge safety devices (like overpressurizing a relief valve to verify that it works at the set pressure), X-ray welds, test metal thickness? What exactly do they do when they carry out an inspection (just the high points)? Do they carry out inspections on live boilers or only during shutdown/opened up (belly of the whale so to speak)conditions or both?
3. What exactly causes a boiler to explode? Overpressurization due to tube failure(s)? Ignition of fuel? Safety relief valve failure to open?
4. How often do boiler explosions occur in Canada (rough estimate)?
S. Bush
GeneratorGrrl
Mechanical
Hello Sbush 
1) The Alberta Boiler Safety Association (ABSA) is a non-profit organization recognized and authorized by the Alberta government to oversee boiler safety. It is not the same as the ASME, whose Canadian equivalent is the CSA (Canadian Standards Association) ABSA collects fees from boiler owners, designers, manufacturers and power engineers. The annual regular inspection is covered by the boiler owner's regular annual fee; additional or special circumstance inspections are charged for on an hourly rate and paid for by the boiler owner.
2) Yes, inspectors may challenge safety devices. If any major repairs to a boiler are made, especially if they involve pressure welding, an inspector must be present to verify the work. An inspector must be present at any hydrostatic test performed on any boiler, be it low or high pressure, hot water or steam, residential or industrial. The regular annual inspection is normally performed with the boiler drained and out of service, so that the tubes and surfaces can be closely inspected. If the inspector feels it necessary, the boiler can be inspected under performance.
3) According to ABSA, the most common cause of boiler failure in Alberta is the burner continuing to burn during a low-water condition. I'm still looking for a statistic describing the frequency of catastrophic boiler failure in Canada - I'm not having much luck. Maybe that says something in and of itself?
The ABSA website is a fun place to browse. Interesting to note, Dr. Lau personally supervises the exams of power engineers of all levels, across Alberta (yep, including mine.)
"Eat well, exercise regularly, die anyways."
1) The Alberta Boiler Safety Association (ABSA) is a non-profit organization recognized and authorized by the Alberta government to oversee boiler safety. It is not the same as the ASME, whose Canadian equivalent is the CSA (Canadian Standards Association) ABSA collects fees from boiler owners, designers, manufacturers and power engineers. The annual regular inspection is covered by the boiler owner's regular annual fee; additional or special circumstance inspections are charged for on an hourly rate and paid for by the boiler owner.
2) Yes, inspectors may challenge safety devices. If any major repairs to a boiler are made, especially if they involve pressure welding, an inspector must be present to verify the work. An inspector must be present at any hydrostatic test performed on any boiler, be it low or high pressure, hot water or steam, residential or industrial. The regular annual inspection is normally performed with the boiler drained and out of service, so that the tubes and surfaces can be closely inspected. If the inspector feels it necessary, the boiler can be inspected under performance.
3) According to ABSA, the most common cause of boiler failure in Alberta is the burner continuing to burn during a low-water condition. I'm still looking for a statistic describing the frequency of catastrophic boiler failure in Canada - I'm not having much luck. Maybe that says something in and of itself?
The ABSA website is a fun place to browse. Interesting to note, Dr. Lau personally supervises the exams of power engineers of all levels, across Alberta (yep, including mine.)
"Eat well, exercise regularly, die anyways."
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To Generatorgrrl:
Thanks for your excellent response.
The Canadian approach to boiler inspections sounds better to me.
S. Bush
Thanks for your excellent response.
The Canadian approach to boiler inspections sounds better to me.
S. Bush
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