Can anyone tell me why welders don't even need to know of the existence of the welding procedure or code they are certifying to, much less know how to read them and a CWI has to sit an 8 (EIGHT) hour examination involving general theory (CLOSED BOOK), the code certifying to (OPEN BOOK) as well as a practical deminstration of our ability to measure, identify discontinuities, and interperate the code.?
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AWS Certification Question 1
- Thread starter Rjeffery
- Start date
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1
- #2
pipewelder1999
Industrial
Welders or at least there supervisors should know the requirements of the WPS as it applies to what they are doing. A welder does't certify to a code. They certify or test within a given range as dictated by the code.
As far as the need to read them, many companies are overwhelmed with people that have the ability to read technical information and discuss it with their peers. Those people are usually in a position to oversee welders. If the welders aren't made aware of the needed technical information, whose fault is it?
As far as the CWI test goes, many people pass that after 40 hour course and I would imagine many don't. I myself (A welder) passed this test 2 times without taking a CWI course. I often wondered why all engineers and supervisors I worked for didn't know all the things I know or wondered if they could pass a welding test after a 40 hour course. ( This was the result of my own pride and is not a GOOD THING)
If a person has the ability to read and understand written and verbal instructions many tasks can be performed correctly by following the instructions. Some may need more detailed instructions but the task could be completed correctly the first time. I could dump every bit of knowledge I have about welding on a written document and I'm nearly positive you couldn't pass a 2" schedule 80 pipe test the first time. It requires a developed skill that is not knowledge related but is based on hand eye coordination and practice. I have read books about martial arts and boxing and knew theories pretty well, the first time I stepped into a ring to actually fight with somebody, I was not thinking about the procedure!
The knowledge helps but is not needed. To sucessfully design a weldment one may have to know the static loads that are going to be applied, corrosion, internal pressure, dynamic loads, service temp, etc. The welder or inspector don't need to know those things. The requirements for the weld are conveyed from the designer/engineer to the welder and inspector through drawings and specifications.
Engineering, supervision, management, and production should all know that the others are needed and supply things that they themselves cannot. Sometimes the mutual respect is hard to come by due to pride about ones own position.
Welders should know technical information about their trade. Many times that information is not made available to them or there organization doesn't feel thay need it. As with any knowledge, it is a good thing to gain. It just may not be needed in all welding jobs.
Many people besides welders are lacking in the areas you describe including myself at various times.
Gerald Austin
Iuka, Mississippi
As far as the need to read them, many companies are overwhelmed with people that have the ability to read technical information and discuss it with their peers. Those people are usually in a position to oversee welders. If the welders aren't made aware of the needed technical information, whose fault is it?
As far as the CWI test goes, many people pass that after 40 hour course and I would imagine many don't. I myself (A welder) passed this test 2 times without taking a CWI course. I often wondered why all engineers and supervisors I worked for didn't know all the things I know or wondered if they could pass a welding test after a 40 hour course. ( This was the result of my own pride and is not a GOOD THING)
If a person has the ability to read and understand written and verbal instructions many tasks can be performed correctly by following the instructions. Some may need more detailed instructions but the task could be completed correctly the first time. I could dump every bit of knowledge I have about welding on a written document and I'm nearly positive you couldn't pass a 2" schedule 80 pipe test the first time. It requires a developed skill that is not knowledge related but is based on hand eye coordination and practice. I have read books about martial arts and boxing and knew theories pretty well, the first time I stepped into a ring to actually fight with somebody, I was not thinking about the procedure!
The knowledge helps but is not needed. To sucessfully design a weldment one may have to know the static loads that are going to be applied, corrosion, internal pressure, dynamic loads, service temp, etc. The welder or inspector don't need to know those things. The requirements for the weld are conveyed from the designer/engineer to the welder and inspector through drawings and specifications.
Engineering, supervision, management, and production should all know that the others are needed and supply things that they themselves cannot. Sometimes the mutual respect is hard to come by due to pride about ones own position.
Welders should know technical information about their trade. Many times that information is not made available to them or there organization doesn't feel thay need it. As with any knowledge, it is a good thing to gain. It just may not be needed in all welding jobs.
Many people besides welders are lacking in the areas you describe including myself at various times.
Gerald Austin
Iuka, Mississippi
- Thread starter
- #3
Pipewelder1999
I, too, am a certified pipe welder and after reading the WPS was able to certify low carbon steel, monel and inconel pipe using SMA, GTA and FC methods (in the 6G position) on the first try. I don't think I could do it now and I admit that I practiced before I 'got into the ring'.
I sat and passed the CWI test after taking the 40 hour course but I did that as I was unfamiliar with the D1.1 code. I had 9 years experience in the service as an NDT inspector prior to sitting that test.
My question is not directed to instutional wekders (DO NOT read prison). I now work almost exclusivly in the construction of large buildings and bridges. Most of the 'welders' I see can't trace their certifications back to prove unbroken use of the process and don't really understand the code they work to. Even the foreman is shocked to find that they can't use welding rods that have been left in the rain or that '1109' rod can't 'burn-out' slag pockets or even that it is the responsability of the welding crew (errector) to remove the slag on welds prior to inspection.
I am sure that welders need not know all the subtle quorks in the code that refers to the engineering of the structure or system that they are putting together. But at least they should know the means and methods of their craft.
Welders do certify to a specific code. A welder welding petrochemical piping certifies to API. Structural Steel welders certify to the D1.1 etc The most fabulous nuclear piping welder would be out of his depth on a marine boiler even though the systems are similar. I know because I was in that exact situation.
I guess I am confusing literacy with certification and quality. Yes, I am proud of my ability to weld and the CWI card I have. I want every one of my peers to have the same pride in their work and I would like to see them advance, if they wish. I feel odd when I see a foreman laying out stitch welds and selecting the rods for a welder. And I feel a little sad when I have to settle a point of code by 'whipping out the book' reading the paragraph aloud then glance up to see the sheepish look on the welder/foreman's face when he realizes that he has been shown to be ignorant (of the code), lying or just plain lazy.
I feel that welders, welding supervisors as well as welding inspectors should certify to the code the same way, with a written exam. The more that a craftsman knows of his craft the better the work they will produce. If there is no requirement to stretch, the quality of the work will remain static and not improve.
I, too, am a certified pipe welder and after reading the WPS was able to certify low carbon steel, monel and inconel pipe using SMA, GTA and FC methods (in the 6G position) on the first try. I don't think I could do it now and I admit that I practiced before I 'got into the ring'.
I sat and passed the CWI test after taking the 40 hour course but I did that as I was unfamiliar with the D1.1 code. I had 9 years experience in the service as an NDT inspector prior to sitting that test.
My question is not directed to instutional wekders (DO NOT read prison). I now work almost exclusivly in the construction of large buildings and bridges. Most of the 'welders' I see can't trace their certifications back to prove unbroken use of the process and don't really understand the code they work to. Even the foreman is shocked to find that they can't use welding rods that have been left in the rain or that '1109' rod can't 'burn-out' slag pockets or even that it is the responsability of the welding crew (errector) to remove the slag on welds prior to inspection.
I am sure that welders need not know all the subtle quorks in the code that refers to the engineering of the structure or system that they are putting together. But at least they should know the means and methods of their craft.
Welders do certify to a specific code. A welder welding petrochemical piping certifies to API. Structural Steel welders certify to the D1.1 etc The most fabulous nuclear piping welder would be out of his depth on a marine boiler even though the systems are similar. I know because I was in that exact situation.
I guess I am confusing literacy with certification and quality. Yes, I am proud of my ability to weld and the CWI card I have. I want every one of my peers to have the same pride in their work and I would like to see them advance, if they wish. I feel odd when I see a foreman laying out stitch welds and selecting the rods for a welder. And I feel a little sad when I have to settle a point of code by 'whipping out the book' reading the paragraph aloud then glance up to see the sheepish look on the welder/foreman's face when he realizes that he has been shown to be ignorant (of the code), lying or just plain lazy.
I feel that welders, welding supervisors as well as welding inspectors should certify to the code the same way, with a written exam. The more that a craftsman knows of his craft the better the work they will produce. If there is no requirement to stretch, the quality of the work will remain static and not improve.
pipewelder1999
Industrial
I do agree that the more you know the better however its not needed. I don't go for that about one code or another. If I qualify to weld plate, vertical up, backing, E-7018 in accordance with AWS D1.1. The test I take to do that same process, position, filler metal is not much different in ASME Sec IX. If I always try to put down sound metal with a given process and filler metal, I don't have to know anything different to complete a production weld that meets the requirements of another code. Sure I may have to test again, but I don't have to study up.
A 2" pipe welds up the same regardless of what code. I could take one test and if the inspector doocumented properly and used the proper test assy and tested accordingly, I could qualify for ASME Sec IX, AWS D14.6, AWS D1.1 all at once with only one test. Provided all requirements of each applicable code were met.
The welding trade has such a varied degree of skill and knowledge level. I think one can sometimes help with shortcomings in the other but if you don't have the skill you just plain can't weld. If you don't have the knowledge about the code etc. That doesn't mean you can't weld.
I have watched a man cap a 6" sch 80 pipe with 1/8" E-7018 from bottom dead center without looking. He struck the arc, welded for about 2 seconds and flipped his hood up and looked away. If I needed a sound weld made in any position, regadrdless of the code, he could do it and had never read the code.
I myself ain't that slick. Luckily I know a little about what is acceptable and what isn't. If the inspector goes overboard on the code. I explain to him where to find the acceptance criteria and if some other acceptance criteria applies, for him to explain it to me so I can adjust to comply. (Egos being what they are, this has not always been a good decision on my part)
I think that a certain amount of training in the technical portion of welding should be taught to all welders taking formal training. And as a professional, one should do something to improve their skill or knowledge. Sometimes anyone that can strike an arc shows up on the job and passes the test.
Welders don't have to prove use of a process. That is normally the burden of the manufacturer who employs such welders.
If welders were to certify to have a given knowledge of the code, then maybe it would be good that anyone writing a project specification be able to perform all tasks within that specification. I don't think that is practical.
Thanks for participating and sorry for rambling.
Gerald Austin Gerald Austin
Iuka, Mississippi
A 2" pipe welds up the same regardless of what code. I could take one test and if the inspector doocumented properly and used the proper test assy and tested accordingly, I could qualify for ASME Sec IX, AWS D14.6, AWS D1.1 all at once with only one test. Provided all requirements of each applicable code were met.
The welding trade has such a varied degree of skill and knowledge level. I think one can sometimes help with shortcomings in the other but if you don't have the skill you just plain can't weld. If you don't have the knowledge about the code etc. That doesn't mean you can't weld.
I have watched a man cap a 6" sch 80 pipe with 1/8" E-7018 from bottom dead center without looking. He struck the arc, welded for about 2 seconds and flipped his hood up and looked away. If I needed a sound weld made in any position, regadrdless of the code, he could do it and had never read the code.
I myself ain't that slick. Luckily I know a little about what is acceptable and what isn't. If the inspector goes overboard on the code. I explain to him where to find the acceptance criteria and if some other acceptance criteria applies, for him to explain it to me so I can adjust to comply. (Egos being what they are, this has not always been a good decision on my part)
I think that a certain amount of training in the technical portion of welding should be taught to all welders taking formal training. And as a professional, one should do something to improve their skill or knowledge. Sometimes anyone that can strike an arc shows up on the job and passes the test.
Welders don't have to prove use of a process. That is normally the burden of the manufacturer who employs such welders.
If welders were to certify to have a given knowledge of the code, then maybe it would be good that anyone writing a project specification be able to perform all tasks within that specification. I don't think that is practical.
Thanks for participating and sorry for rambling.
Gerald Austin Gerald Austin
Iuka, Mississippi
AWS Certification for welders (D1.1) is directed at the abilty of the welder to be able to weld without discontunities. I have run a structural steel fabrication shop for many years and am amazed at the lack of knowledge with AWS Certified Welders.
1. They apply for a position and do not even know what type of wire they have been using.
2. Unable to properly hook up the leads (polarity) to the machine.
3. Unable to prep a full-pen joint
4. Never heard of a WPS
It is the ultimate responsibility of the Contractor to make sure the welder not only has Certifications but also is current and capable of performing the job suitable for the job requirements. One thing is the amount of mis-information which is circulated by "sea lawyers" (military term) which subsquently becomes "fact"; not based on code but through evolution of gang box meetings. I would like to see more strigent guidelines and testing for welding certification.
LA City certification requires testing on Code in addition to the welding test, this at least introduces the welder to AWS. For the interim, Contractors and Inspectors will have to carry the burden of training and education to the field to make more people aware of these issues.
1. They apply for a position and do not even know what type of wire they have been using.
2. Unable to properly hook up the leads (polarity) to the machine.
3. Unable to prep a full-pen joint
4. Never heard of a WPS
It is the ultimate responsibility of the Contractor to make sure the welder not only has Certifications but also is current and capable of performing the job suitable for the job requirements. One thing is the amount of mis-information which is circulated by "sea lawyers" (military term) which subsquently becomes "fact"; not based on code but through evolution of gang box meetings. I would like to see more strigent guidelines and testing for welding certification.
LA City certification requires testing on Code in addition to the welding test, this at least introduces the welder to AWS. For the interim, Contractors and Inspectors will have to carry the burden of training and education to the field to make more people aware of these issues.
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