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Are STEM Workers Overpaid? 9
- Thread starter SAITAETGrad
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JohnRBaker
Mechanical
In my personal opinion, that IEEE blog item reads like piece of crap.
It seems to be making the argument that the income disparity that we see in America today is somehow being caused by STEM workers earning more than non-STEM workers. Their argument just doesn't hold water, or are they suggesting that the 1% are somehow all engineers and scientists? Besides, their solution is NOT to increase the compensation for non-STEM workers but rather to drag down the wages of engineers and other STEM workers. Well, if this has no impact on the wages being earned by the 1% then this will only make income disparities WORSE since it will ultimately undermine even further the earning potential of the middle-class, where most STEM workers generally find themselves after getting their degrees and finding those supposedly higher-paying jobs.
Anyway, that's my humble opinion, for what it's worth...
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
It seems to be making the argument that the income disparity that we see in America today is somehow being caused by STEM workers earning more than non-STEM workers. Their argument just doesn't hold water, or are they suggesting that the 1% are somehow all engineers and scientists? Besides, their solution is NOT to increase the compensation for non-STEM workers but rather to drag down the wages of engineers and other STEM workers. Well, if this has no impact on the wages being earned by the 1% then this will only make income disparities WORSE since it will ultimately undermine even further the earning potential of the middle-class, where most STEM workers generally find themselves after getting their degrees and finding those supposedly higher-paying jobs.
Anyway, that's my humble opinion, for what it's worth...
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
Hear, Hear John Baker. Well said.
PE, SE
Eastern United States
"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi
PE, SE
Eastern United States
"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi
CheckerHater
Mechanical
For all it’s worth, I have seen quite a few STEM people making less than unionized janitor.
Article seems to be total garbage.
And by the way, whatever happened to free market and ability to sell my skill to a highest bidder?
Article seems to be total garbage.
And by the way, whatever happened to free market and ability to sell my skill to a highest bidder?
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- #5
My reading of the blog is that it is highlighting the efforts of large companies to suppress STEM wages
through any means available.
Funny how that free market thing just takes a back seat when it hurts instead of helps the fortune 500.
An interesting link from the article.
Also note that the phrase "labor shortage" as applied to any level of job is nonsensical in an economics
perspective. Whatever labor is desired can be obtained by just paying more, which is the rub.
Yeah that free market rhetoric is only for the top and not the individual.
through any means available.
Funny how that free market thing just takes a back seat when it hurts instead of helps the fortune 500.
An interesting link from the article.
Also note that the phrase "labor shortage" as applied to any level of job is nonsensical in an economics
perspective. Whatever labor is desired can be obtained by just paying more, which is the rub.
Yeah that free market rhetoric is only for the top and not the individual.
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- #8
Ok, so other than 2dye4 who actually read to the end of the article?
Toward the second half it was clearly debunking the premise of the title and what folk like Alan Greenspan have been claiming.
From what I've seen H1B (and even the student guest worker visa version) are pretty close to being indentured servitude which in turn isn't that far from modern slavery which I thought something had been added to the Constitution about but my memory must be playing up. Very few of the H1B's I've seen are truely astounding 'world leading' talent etc from what I've seen.
Now, if the question had been "Are Senior Executives & Wall Street Types Overpaid"...
Toward the second half it was clearly debunking the premise of the title and what folk like Alan Greenspan have been claiming.
From what I've seen H1B (and even the student guest worker visa version) are pretty close to being indentured servitude which in turn isn't that far from modern slavery which I thought something had been added to the Constitution about but my memory must be playing up. Very few of the H1B's I've seen are truely astounding 'world leading' talent etc from what I've seen.
Now, if the question had been "Are Senior Executives & Wall Street Types Overpaid"...
Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
SomptingGuy
Automotive
I got a mail from the IMechE today, asking about "STEM" workers in Aus being hard to find.
- Steve
- Steve
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1
- #10
It sounds like some people need to take an economics course or two. Yes if we allow more workes from other countries here, the cost per worker will go down (most people know that).
People who are paid less spend less, so you have fewer customers. Also as you allow more workers here, there are fewer workers for jobs in other countries. So people who are less qualified will fill those positions (you thought imported stuff is crap, just wait).
The people who are most qualified will gravitate to better paying jobs, leaving most companies with lower paid people, who are less qualified (Why does this copier keep breaking).
Why don't we just allow more business people and pay the business people less. Same with lawyers.
Apperently there is a shortage of truck drivers, so if pay decreases below that of truck drivers, then people will gravitate there.
People who are paid less spend less, so you have fewer customers. Also as you allow more workers here, there are fewer workers for jobs in other countries. So people who are less qualified will fill those positions (you thought imported stuff is crap, just wait).
The people who are most qualified will gravitate to better paying jobs, leaving most companies with lower paid people, who are less qualified (Why does this copier keep breaking).
Why don't we just allow more business people and pay the business people less. Same with lawyers.
Apperently there is a shortage of truck drivers, so if pay decreases below that of truck drivers, then people will gravitate there.
moltenmetal
Chemical
I see your IEEE blog post, and counter with a well-researched, very poignant article from IEEE Spectrum:
Preaching to the converted here: the people who profit from an oversupply of engineers have been complaining about engineering shortages since the 1930s. See the sidebar of the article for the quotes, one per decade, from now until then.
There's no shortage- there's an oversupply of massive proportions, well beyond the needs of the marketplace. That's why engineering compensation has slipped relative to every other professional. The median salary of an Ontario teacher is now greater than that of a Level D (experienced) engineer.
Preaching to the converted here: the people who profit from an oversupply of engineers have been complaining about engineering shortages since the 1930s. See the sidebar of the article for the quotes, one per decade, from now until then.
There's no shortage- there's an oversupply of massive proportions, well beyond the needs of the marketplace. That's why engineering compensation has slipped relative to every other professional. The median salary of an Ontario teacher is now greater than that of a Level D (experienced) engineer.
btrueblood
Mechanical
Thanks Kenat. Without your post, I would not have read the article. Now I did, and get your point.
Didn't the oath that we swore to uphold as engineers state that we would passively standby and watch as our wages and jobs were taken away? Since we engineers have too much integrity to resort to such maneuvers as withholding our labor to protest, we could issue strongly worded memos to our company bosses. Our sistren and brethren in the AMA, ADA, ABA and a few trade unions seem to understand a little about controlling entry into the labor pool.
CheckerHater
Mechanical
![[thumbsup]](/data/assets/smilies/thumbsup.gif "[thumbsup] [thumbsup]")
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- #18
CheckerHater
Mechanical
Don't you have ISO 9000?
The joke I remembered before going to Wiki:
"Do you know what Italian Strike is? They go to work and don't do anything."
"How is it different fron regular days?"
My apologies to all hard-working Italians out there...
The joke I remembered before going to Wiki:
"Do you know what Italian Strike is? They go to work and don't do anything."
"How is it different fron regular days?"
My apologies to all hard-working Italians out there...
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- #20
HornTootinEE
Electrical
So---we want to disuade the best and brightest from entering the fields that create and build everything we use everyday from roads to houses to bridges? Really? That seems like a really dumb idea.
I feel we as engineers are often looked at as a scourge. We want to do things right (and have a professional responsibilty to do so) but that often costs money. Do you want the best employees offering the best and yes, most cost effective (not cheap always!) solutions? Then that costs more money. MBAs don't like that because in their mind it hurts their bottom line. In the long run I'd argue their bottom line is far stronger with solid professionals on board rather than bottom of the barrel slackers cutting corners to make the quartley earnings look good and make their investor conference call go smoothly.
Does Greenspan want to drive down the wages of Doctors, CEOs, other high level executives? Wonder why not??? We all know that how the sausage is made is the secret that keeps Jimmy Dean in business. I bet the CEO doesn't know the secret, but the mid-level grunt grinding the meat sure does. Point: Without CEO, company keeps selling sausage. Without the grunt mixing, they stop selling sausage because it's no longer Jimmy Dean but some other "guesswork" recipe.
And when did STEM get this "HIGH PAID" label? Yeah, we are "well paid" but certainly I could argue to my two little boys when they start making those career path choices that a trade or business direction will make them as much or more money for far less education and unpaid effort then a STEM occupation will garner. I am almost 10 yrs out of college and they could make the same as me now 2 yrs out of high school with a trade. So why bother if it's about money??
I feel we as engineers are often looked at as a scourge. We want to do things right (and have a professional responsibilty to do so) but that often costs money. Do you want the best employees offering the best and yes, most cost effective (not cheap always!) solutions? Then that costs more money. MBAs don't like that because in their mind it hurts their bottom line. In the long run I'd argue their bottom line is far stronger with solid professionals on board rather than bottom of the barrel slackers cutting corners to make the quartley earnings look good and make their investor conference call go smoothly.
Does Greenspan want to drive down the wages of Doctors, CEOs, other high level executives? Wonder why not??? We all know that how the sausage is made is the secret that keeps Jimmy Dean in business. I bet the CEO doesn't know the secret, but the mid-level grunt grinding the meat sure does. Point: Without CEO, company keeps selling sausage. Without the grunt mixing, they stop selling sausage because it's no longer Jimmy Dean but some other "guesswork" recipe.
And when did STEM get this "HIGH PAID" label? Yeah, we are "well paid" but certainly I could argue to my two little boys when they start making those career path choices that a trade or business direction will make them as much or more money for far less education and unpaid effort then a STEM occupation will garner. I am almost 10 yrs out of college and they could make the same as me now 2 yrs out of high school with a trade. So why bother if it's about money??
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