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Air India 787 crashes on take off 10

LittleInch

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A full 787-8 has crashed shortly after take off in ahmedabad.

Basically barely got off the ground then look like its trying to land in this video.


Specualtion that they pulled flaps up instead of gear up and basically didn't have enough lift so it looks like a gentle stall right into a built up area.

Looks to be flaps up, slats/ nose flaps down and gear down which is very odd.
 
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And there's nothing in this preliminary report that would explain this loud bang during takeoff this lone survivor spoke of - it couldnt be the autostart of the APU when the main engines dropped out, and I suspect its not the RAT dropping out of its storage bay either.
Videos I see on YT where pilots flick these fuel cut off toggles on or off with hardly any effort must be the older version ( with no locking indent) that the FAA advised replacement?
Given the 737 max 8 cover up over those faulty angle of ascent sensors, and the fact that Boeing personnel are / were in the investigation team for this incident, I wouldnt give much credit to what is in this preliminary report.
The RAT was out before they left the end of the runway so pretty early. It does apparently make quite a big bang when it falls out into its position.
 
Here's what I find a little odd. Per the timeline, fuel switches are placed in Cutoff position, Pilot 1 identifies this immediately. Now TEN SECONDS elapse before Engine 1 switch is returned to Run, four more seconds before Engine 2 switch is returned to Run.

On the one hand, ten seconds doesn't seem like a long time, on the other hand it was ten seconds they didn't have. Makes me wonder what was going on on that flight deck.

EDIT: Pilot 1 & Pilot 2 hand fighting over the switches? If only there was video...
The report doesn't say "immediately ". The immediately thing was the engines started to spool down. Allowing 3 seconds for startle response, alarms starting to go off etc, it could easily take a few seconds of scanning of the cockpit before the other pilot said those words, then one of them moved the fuel levers back to on. Ten seconds in reality is pretty fast as I don't think the PF would see the actions they are concentrating on flying.
 
That's true, no time stamp associated with the CVR is reported. Surely one exists correlated with the FDR?
 
Even the old Jetstream with it's 8 channel cvr and 16 data recorder had a time stamp linking the 2. Think it was a tone pulse.

Common data bus linked to the FMS and GPS. GPS spoofing might cause problems I suppose.
 
The sequence of events might help to identify what happened. Was the comment "Why did you cut off?" made before or after the switches were returned to normal state?
Scenario 1-
1- Crewmember A turns off switches
2- Crewmember B eventually identifies switches are off and turns them back on, while asking the question.

Scenario 2-
1- Crewmember A turns off switches
2- Crewmember B is trying to figure out what's wrong. Maybe noticing those switches are off isn't too obvious?
3- Crewmember A thinks better or it and turns the switches back on.
4- Crewmember B notices that and asks the question.

...or any of a dozen other scenarios.
 
I would go for 1. There is plenty of chatter today which seems to be a leak from the NTSB saying that the Captain turned it off, then was quite calm about things whilst the FO went into full panic mode.

There are reports that the head of the NTSB wanted to listen to the CVR in full.

I've had a bad feeling about this crash for a long time now - see post #52...

When reporting or admitting to depression or similar can lose you your job and livelihood how do you get honest answers??
 
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I would go for 1. There is plenty of chatter today which seems to be a leak from the NTSB saying that the Captain turned it off, then was quite calm about things whilst the FO went into full panic mode.

There are reports that the head of the NTSB wanted to listen to the CVR in full.

I've had a bad feeling about this crash for a long time now.

When reporting or admitting to depression or similar can lose you your job and livelihood how do you get honest answers??
Hmm so to be clear, the one without the mask.
 
As  Tomfh asked in posts 333 & 336, is there an indicator of the fuel cutoff position other than visual check of the switch position? A pilot's only feedback would be the loss of power and they would quickly scan the controls? Or is there a fuel flow indicator or similar to identify fuel is being delivered to the engines?

Is there a time dwell for an engine relight? The reason I ask - if there is another indicator of fuel cutoff, then is it possible for this scenario:

1. Unidentified cause of fuel cutoff occurs.
2. Copilot observes fuel cutoff by alternate indicator and ask the pilot 'why did you cut fuel?' while concentrating on the details of liftoff.
3. Pilot responds 'I did not'.
4. They both scramble to recover the situation since the engines are spooling down and proceceed to attempt engine relight.
5. From previous posts, I think it has been explained relighting entails turning off the fuel and turning back on. So that is done to both engines within one (1) second of each other.
6. Is there a require dwell for turning on fuel again to properly let the engine controls know a relight is commanded? This would be the approximate ten (10) second delay noted in the flight data for engines to respond. The fuel cutoff would have been returned to the RUN position and that is where they were observed in the crash investigation.


How can the contridication of the denial of the Pilot to the Copilot be resolved to the FDR data and the final switch position?

Edited: In my attempt to resolve the Pilot's denial, I forgot the FDR data indicates the fuel cutoff occurred before the Copilot asked his question. So this seems like a deliberate act to crash the plane.
 
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As  Tomfh asked in posts 333 & 336, is there an indicator of the fuel cutoff position other than visual check of the switch position? A pilot's only feedback would be the loss of power and they would quickly scan the controls? Or is there a fuel flow indicator or similar to identify fuel is being delivered to the engines?

Is there a time dwell for an engine relight? The reason I ask - if there is another indicator of fuel cutoff, then is it possible for this scenario:

1. Unidentified cause of fuel cutoff occurs.
2. Copilot observes fuel cutoff by alternate indicator and ask the pilot 'why did you cut fuel?' while concentrating on the details of liftoff.
3. Pilot responds 'I did not'.
4. They both scramble to recover the situation since the engines are spooling down and proceceed to attempt engine relight.
5. From previous posts, I think it has been explained relighting entails turning off the fuel and turning back on. So that is done to both engines within one (1) second of each other.
6. Is there a require dwell for turning on fuel again to properly let the engine controls know a relight is commanded? This would be the approximate ten (10) second delay noted in the flight data for engines to respond. The fuel cutoff would have been returned to the RUN position and that is where they were observed in the crash investigation.


How can the contridication of the denial of the Pilot to the Copilot be resolved to the FDR data and the final switch position?

Edited: In my attempt to resolve the Pilot's denial, I forgot the FDR data indicates the fuel cutoff occurred before the Copilot asked his question. So this seems like a deliberate act to crash the plane.
I don't believe there is a specific indicator because from engine start to engine off once you've landed, they should always be in the run position. It would have become clear very quickly that the engines speed was reducing - the N1 guage - , plus no doubt a whole set of alarms going off, including "Pull Up" and "don't sink". Given the other pilots hand would have been close to the switches a quick scan there would show that when there was no other reason why they were suddenly with no thrust, sinking and engines slowing down, deliberate or accidental fuel cut off switch movement was something that needed to be checked. Fuel cut off other than some really random failure would be most likely the fuel cut off switches or the fire extinguisher / engine fire switches which are guarded a bit more than the fuel cut off ones.

I don't quite know what you mean by time dwell, but apparently if the plane is in the air and you turn the fuel switches back to "run" the FADEC automatically tries to relight the engines. The basic problem being that the engines had spun down so far that they wouldn't spool back up again in time and without APU power there wasn't enough in the batteries to add motor spin to spool them up faster.

Despite the pilots union in India warning against leaping to judgement, it is very difficult with what has been released and leaked to think this is anything other than a deliberate act.

As I said before, the timing was crucial. Too early in the take off and the pilot flying might have been tempted to take the least worst option and brake with everything he had and take an end of runway collision. Too late by even five seconds and recovery might have been possible within literally only a few more hundred feet of altitude available. It certainly sounds like no 1 engine had re lit and was spooling up - "racing" as the survivor said - but they just ran out of altitude.

As for why the other pilot said "It wasn't me", well he knows enough that he was being recorded and that that recording would probably survive so there would plausible deniability for his family. Possibly. After all, without video, who can say with 100% accuracy who moved the switches?
 
Thanks, LittleInch for the clarifications - I have no clue what pilots have as indicators in the cockpit - I get on the plane, sit down, and take the ride.

The pilot's union rebuttal is driving some of the conflict I am trying to resolve over the voice recording and the switch position. Unfortunately, with the preliminary report and the explanations in many posts in this thread, a deliberate action is more probable.
 
IMG_20250628_125237626.jpg

Excuse the geocache trackable it was a picture for a child.

Modern day it's nothing indicated if everything is good. White then yellow then red on engine parameters. And that big black box on the right mostly out of shot lists the things the plane has decided to tell us about. Something's it does not, like blocked primary filters and transferred to secondary. First we know about it is an engineering van waiting for us at the gate on arrival.
 
Thanks, LittleInch for the clarifications - I have no clue what pilots have as indicators in the cockpit - I get on the plane, sit down, and take the ride.

The pilot's union rebuttal is driving some of the conflict I am trying to resolve over the voice recording and the switch position. Unfortunately, with the preliminary report and the explanations in many posts in this thread, a deliberate action is more probable.
It's taken me a little while to track this down, but I'm pretty sure this is a 787 Engine EICAS display.

So once the fuel was cut off, all the indications would suddenly start falling, TPR ( basically thrust), N1 - speed of the main fan blades and a little further down the list you can see FF which I'm pretty certain stands for Fuel Flow. Clearly that would go from something like 25 or more on take off to zero.

So given pilots training on these to scan the key instruments if FF was zero, it's a pretty good indication that there is no fuel flow. Cut off switches is a first look I would guess.

Screenshot 2025-07-17 184433.png
 
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It's using 2.9 tons of fuel per hour per engine. 50 tons onboard

Icle geared fan a220 0.9 tons an hour per engine. 5 tons But I just had to get over the Alps.
 

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