7.0 hits Haiti? 2

[msquared48]

What's goin' on?

Somehow, I never thought of this region as prone to earthquakes of this magnitude. Very strange to me.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask

 

[concretemasonry]

The number of structural engineers may even be inflated, but the tradition of politics and present economical factors make it necessary to build cheap so it will last as long as the time back to the last seismic event since short term requirements take control. - It gets down to tradition, corruption and politics.

It is amazing how many successful great multi-million dollar baseball players come out of the eastern side of the island (Dominican Republic) where they have some facilities and a taste for improvement, but that is the local situation that was created.

 

[hokie66]

I don't know why anyone is surprised by the lack of quality construction. This is the poorest country in the western hemisphere. There are plenty of countries much richer which don't have much better construction.

 

[msquared48]

Based on my experience Hokie, I am not surprised, just very angered for the victims. Unfortunately, it's all about the money, not safety. Pathetic in my professional opinion.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask

 

[steellion]

My UFC manual lists Port-au-Prince, Haiti with an 80%g Ss and a 32%g S1, so the earthquake risk was well documented. They simply can't afford to have the good construction practices necessary for a building that will perform well against quakes. That's where the aiding nations come in. If they are serious about helping Haiti, we need to build hospitals, emergency stations, low-incoming housing, etc FOR them, using our seismic engineering expertise. This is a horrible tragedy but can be an opportunity to change Haiti for the better. It reminds me of the Chicago fire, in that so much is destroyed, once the rubble is cleared there will be a clean slate in much of the country.

My thoughts and prayers are with all the Haitian people.

 

[bones206]

I agree with steellion. I think there is an opportunity for organizations like Engineers Without Borders to play a role in recovery and help make key structures safer.

 

[BridgeBuilder88]

Who's going to pay for it? We are. Read some news articles, alot of major countries are shelling out the cash... after this has happened.

U.S. committed 100 million and more in the future.

Maybe this will prompt them to shell out cash for other countries BEFORE it happens.

On another note.. I was in the DR last summer and suprisingly almost every building that I say being constructed had rebar sticking out of the unfinished walls. Maybe that's just because it was near the resorts?

Anthony Deramo
American Bridge Company

 

[msucog]

Yep, I'm not sure what that reporter I saw was thinking saying the construction quality was high in Haiti but I've seen many other places confirming what others have said here tha the quality of construction is dismal.

I wonder where the US will pull the money from...(borrow from China again?)

Ryan Coggins, P.E., S.I.

http://www.linkedin.com/in/ryancoggins

 

[dgillette]

Anthony - From my limited direct observation of the DR and my observation of Haiti filtered through the media, they are orders of magnitude apart from each other, and have very little in common aside from being on the same island. The DR is far from being a wealthy country, but there are some industry, tourism bringing in money from abroad, a middle class, etc., and importantly, capital investment. I don't believe Haiti has much of any of those, for a variety of political, historical, and natural reasons (a discussion best left to a forum on politics or economics, rather than eng-tips). The DR is actively pursuing seismology and earthquake engineering. In 2001, the government of the DR sponsored a big conference on seismicity and earthquake engineering. It was well attended, mostly by Dominicans, with some Cubans, Puerto Ricans, and others from surrounding areas, and a few of us norteamericanos. [The president of the DR made a quick appearance, as Gov. Schwarzenegger did for the conference in SFO for the 100th anniversary of the 1906 EQ.] I don't believe a single person from Haiti attended. Most likely, that was because of the very small number of engineers and seismologists in Haiti that would have the interest and the money to go.

I am not real optimistic about the "clean slate" attracting the kind of capital investment it would take to build a new Port-au-Prince. Private charities and other governments will be the main forces. This is very different from the Chicago fire or the SFO earthquake, because outside of those two cities, there was a functioning national economy as a source of capital, along with a middle class, insurance, etc. The earthquake in Haiti will be far harder and slower to recover from.

 

[concretemasonry]

It is not exactly like the Katrina disaster that happened in 2005,2005..., but there are some parallels regarding construction practices and code enforcement. This is based on 6 months of probing the damage in early 2006. I also spent a lot of time listening to the volunteers and their experiences.

It takes time to get the traditions and "kinks" out and to rebuild confidence in an area for rebuilding.

Engineer and international traveler interested in construction techniques, problems and proper design.

 

[HSNIC]

Even the Presidential Palace and Parliament was destroyed.

I would like to think that the rebuilding process will spark some kind of circulating economy for them.

I am pretty sure their hurricane codes are out the door too.

The best teacher in the world is History.

 

[unclesyd]

Is there any way for a country as poor a Haiti to build to seismic or hurricane standards as both options add appreciably to the building cost and are not normally complimentary?

 

[msquared48]

That's like saying that it's too expensive to eat healthy food, so I'll eat garbage. Nevermind the additional trips to the doctor and that expense.

Bottom line is pay me now, or pay me later. The problem is that "later" involves payment in lives too. Rather permanent debt I'd say.

Do it now, the right way. No one said that it had to be fast and all at once. Just do it the right way.



Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask

 

[hokie66]

Mike, who is going to do the paying? Haiti has no money.

 

[msquared48]

I know that, but they do have something or they would not be in existance. Point being they did build what they have with something. Perhaps they should re-think this and build less, but better.

H... for that matter, if they had been living in tents, the loss of life there would have been minimal. Tents don't crush people when they fail, but poorly constructed masonry sure does.

I realize that I am being altruistic here, but if you are going to change things for the better, you have to start somewhere.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask

 

[HSNIC]

Looks like they are going to have to apply for UN aid and get loans from other countries. I hear their port has been ravaged and cannot stevedore incoming cargo ships. I read that Saint-Marc has a working seaport. That seems 10 times better than shipping in to DR and driving.

Since labor is relatively cheap, maybe prestressed concrete can be "introduced" to rebuild.

 

[unclesyd]

HSNIC,
It looks as though the port had only on container crane and it's is leaning precariously while sitting on a collapsed dock. The trouble is that all sea going cargo is containerized and there are hardly any ships that have cargo booms.

I've been talking with an acquaintance who is in the
prestressed concrete business about getting in touch with the proper people about the same thing. The problem is where and who. The few attempts we have made have been to no avail, with one commenting we want money not advice.

Another idea that crossed my little mind is to construct single units using something approaching a round footprint. This would be very good for hurricanes and could possibly be reinforced for earthquakes.

I am also trying to locate my old ferrocement boat building buddy.

 

[msquared48]

Listened to the news last night and Ex-President Clinton who is the UN emissary to Haiti, claimed that changes in approach have been in the works for some time - Including reinforcing and code changes, and the people supposedly want it. We'll have to see...

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask

 

[dgillette]

This picture (forwarded to me by Ahmed Elgamel at UC San Diego) might be the damaged crane to which unclesyd was referring.

 

[dgillette]

Didn't work. I'll try again.

 

[msquared48]

Looks like a definite liquefaction/subsidence issue. Typical.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask