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Spain and Portugal power grid collapse

LittleInch

Petroleum
Mar 27, 2013
22,595
Widely reported, the Spanish and Portuguese electricity supply collapsed 28th April after it lost 15GW of supply (about half of its consumption) in 5 seconds. Not surprisingly the interconnected to France the European grid tripped and the grid collapsed.

This M is nearly un heard of and lights just how much we all rely on Grid power. Basically nothing worked. No mobile coverage, precious little Internet, no ATM or even if you had cash the tills didn't work. Trains stuck in tunnels or out in the middle of no where and traffic gridlock.

Some standby power, but limited and also limited in duration for hospitals, airports etc.

If there are some grid sparkies out there, please do some digging and see why this happened? No one so far as I can see can say why supposed high vibrations or fluctuations in the HVgrid caused such a dramatic loss of supply.

Seems to be slowly recovering today, but I can imagine bringing an entire country back on line is not straightforward.
This what the head of the Spamish Grid said. Anyone able to interpret this?

" Sánchez said that the power cut originated at 12.33pm, when, for five seconds, 15 gigawatts of the energy that was being produced – equivalent to 60% of all the energy that was being used – suddenly disappeared.

“That’s something that has never happened before,” he added. “What prompted this sudden disappearance of the supply is something that the experts still haven’t been able to determine. But they will … All potential causes are being analysed and no hypothesis or possibility is being ruled out.”

Sánchez thanked France and Morocco for sending additional electricity to Spain, and said the current shortfall would be eased using gas and hydroelectric power.

The Portuguese operator, REN, said the outage was caused by a “rare atmospheric phenomenon”, with extreme temperature variations in Spain causing “anomalous oscillations” in very high-voltage lines.


REN said the phenomenon, known as “induced atmospheric vibration”, caused “synchronisation failures between the electrical systems, leading to successive disturbances across the interconnected European network”. "
 
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Immediately before the failure, the majority of power on the grid was inverter sourced, not rotating. I have heard talk of motorizing retired generator units in order to improve inertia of heavily solar/battery supplied grids.
 

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I imagine it will be a long while before we have a conclusive analysis.

It's outside my realm but if I had to guess I'd say it will have to do with the "ride through performance" of the inverters.

Perhaps incorrect (or insufficient) Inverter settings.
 
Sometimes I see them. Sometimes no. Like now.

Oh. Thanks. Pages.

What a nice feature. You can ignore all previous threads and just type the same answer someone already did on page 1.
 
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I tried to get them to give us the option of 20, 50 or 100 posts per page, but that fell on deaf ears....

There does seem to be quite a bit of concern about the high level of solar and wind power and at midday that would be peak solar.

Mr 44 - does that website on post 17 give a key to what the percent of different generation was at the time of collapse?

So maybe settings need to be adjusted and some different circuit breakers installed to prevent total collapse. Electricity stuff happens so fast compared to fluid transport.
 
They'd probably need a synchronous condenser to have a lot of added inertia if they want it to provide significant help with grid stability,
 
Sometimes I see them. Sometimes no. Like now.

Oh. Thanks. Pages.

What a nice feature. You can ignore all previous threads and just type the same answer someone already did on page 1.
Exactly! Format is very inefficient and cumbersome, but I am sure that is on purpose to general more ad space.

If 100 posts per page, vs 10 per page, then one order of magnitude less page loading counts, and jumping back and forth between pages trying to follow thread, and double postings, runs page loading count up even more.
 
Format is very inefficient and cumbersome,
A previous platform did not provide pages.
Long threads sometimes took a very long time to load.
Now the powers that are have gone to the other cumbersome extreme.
 
Starting to see some well thought out discussion with better technical content. Still not much.
Spain-Portugal blackouts: what actually happened, and what can Iberia and Europe learn from it? The Conversation US, Inc.
Published: May 2, 2025

No incentive for keeping reserve with inertia on line (market power cost was negative).

In the five minutes between 12:30 and 12:35, something anomalous happened which is still yet to receive an official explanation: a sudden drop in the Iberian electricity grid causes a total blackout.

About halfway through the article there is a fairly long list of events which seem to indicate an inability to balance supply to load fast enough to prevent inverters (solar power) from tripping.
 
Take away all the Government incentives to deploy solar and wnd, and ADD the cost of grid-forming inverters, syncronous condensors, battery backup farms, effective control systems, hire engineers to manage vs MBA polticians, etc., to the cost of providing so called 'Green' energy, and you likely find there would not be a larhge cost advantage vs fossil, especially when you factor in environment impact of solar and wind from cradle to grave.
 
Smart grid allows the inverters to adjust the power factor of the output.

I am setup to get mine to do it locally at my place.

Also to note led lights are a pain in the bum for power factor.
 
I have never seen PF listed when buying LED bulbs in US, and on Amazon.

In our area residential power charged based upon watts. Howver, commercial has todeal with PF. So if LED bulbs have a PF of .55 vs Incadescent of 1, then that is a problem.

My experience is LED's don't seem to last as long advertised and put out a harsh light quality. But thanks to Obama, that is what we have.
 
I will let someone that knows what they are talking about explain the pf stuff and leds and class A bulbs.

When i got my solarinstalled the export contract had a heap of limitations and causes for disconnection.

One of them was power factor. I have a 8.5kW ground heat pump 3phase with a 24amp startup surge.

The solar energy meter is a commercial unit and has real time monitoring.

When i looked at it, i was way outside the grid limits. And the cheap led lights were sub 0.6. The inverter can dynamically track pf and output 0.7-1-0.7. Since i did that all high voltage issues stopped and no led bulb failures.

Quite what is/was happening i can only guess, just know i am inside contract limits now.
 
If there are transformers or reactor coils dropping the voltage for the LEDs that may be the source of the poor PF.
Also, is this displacement PF or distortion PF?
It appears that the driver may be more to blame for poor PF than the LED itself, but considering the non-linear nature of diodes, displacement or distortion PF.
Switching power supply type drivers may be causing distortion PF issues.
On line, too many sites start by equating PF with efficiency.
Worse than FaceBook for misinformation.
I didn't find any graphic curves that may help to explain the types of PF issues with LEDs.
 
These class A led bulbs carry an efficiency grade.

sailsco Energy Class A GU10 LED Warm White Lamp, 1.9 W 345 LM 2700 K Warm White GU10 Spot Energy Saving Bulb, 50 W Bulb Replaces, 36 Degree Beam Angle G10 Bulb, Not Dimmable Bulb, Pack of 12 https://amzn.eu/d/6VW8ksG

Don't have a clue how these differ to others just know the data sheet says pf 0.9 which they actually do.

The philips hue bulbs also have a pf of 0.9.

The Chinese cheap led bulbs from the local hardware store are 0.6 at my brother in laws place.
 
LEDs work on DC, right?
Power factor is the cosine of the phase angle.
There is no phase angle on DC.
The power factor seen by the utility is caused by the LED driver, and how much the manufacturer spends on the driver circuit..
 

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