Spain and Portugal power grid collapse | Report Released

[SSCon]

Original Thread: https://www.eng-tips.com/threads/spain-and-portugal-power-grid-collapse.528839/

Report (Spanish): https://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/consej...me-no-confidencial-Comite-de-analisis-28A.pdf

TLDR: The grid operator had inadequate spinning mass on the grid to keep it stable.

 

[waross]

Vacuum can be maintained by a small amount supplying steam to the the turbine and condensing it in the condenser

My point:
The installation of a large battery bank and suitable inverter.
Perfect. Part of carbon emissions 100% eliminated.
But;
High capital Expense and long lead time.

The installation of a synchronous condenser..
Perfect. Part of carbon emissions 100% eliminated.
But;
High capital Expense and long lead time.

Disconnect turbine and install pony motor and controls.
Perfect. Part of carbon emissions 100% eliminated.
But;
Lower capital Expense and shorter lead time.
or
Vacuum can be maintained by a small amount supplying steam to the the turbine and condensing it in the condenser
Excellent. Part of carbon emissions almost 100% eliminated.
Mostly done by changing control settings.
Capital cost, nill. Lead time? Will next week be okay or do you want it later this week?
Perfection will always be the enemy of excellence.

 

[FacEngrPE]

Inertia and VAR control are both necessary components of regulation. if the tariff values them appropriately they will be available when needed.

Here they obviously were not valued appropriately. Will they be the next time they are needed?

 

[MechinNC]

I would think a battery farm would be better at handling grid control than any sort of rotating machine. Probably cheaper and more efficient too.

 

[TugboatEng]

I would think a battery farm would be better at handling grid control than any sort of rotating machine. Probably cheaper and more efficient too.

Did you make this comment without reading a single comment in the thread?

 

[MechinNC]

Did you make this comment without reading a single comment in the thread?

No, I read the whole thread and much more on this topic.

Batts and inverters (might I stress, properly set up inverters) can do what ever a rotating machine could do to enhance grid stability. It is just that a rotating machine does this naturally without needing particularly good controls as the batt/inverter system would need.

I suspect this whole event stemmed from a mish-mash combo of inverter systems that did not get along well together.

 

[TugboatEng]

A GE Frame 9 turbine is capable of over 1400MW from a single generator set. The largest battery storage system in the world is 750MW and cost nearly $1 billion. The GE Frame 9 is around $450-700 million.

But! A generator is capable of handling transients much higher than the nameplate. For us in marine our generators are required to be able to drive 3x the nameplate rating. This is where the inertial or a rotating machine becomes a big deal. Your battery may be double the cost with 1/6th the capacity and you still have to pay to charge it.

 

[MechinNC]

I agree that a big turbine set has lots of advantages due to inertia. But for grid stability that inertia can last maybe seconds unless the turbine is alive by burning fossil fuel or nuke. And that is inefficient if the power is not needed and only grid damping is needed. On utility scale, I do not think they can handle a 3x surge like the marine units might.

 

[tdmidget]

A GE Frame 9 turbine is capable of over 1400MW from a single generator set. The largest battery storage system in the world is 750MW and cost nearly $1 billion. The GE Frame 9 is around $450-700 million.

But! A generator is capable of handling transients much higher than the nameplate. For us in marine our generators are required to be able to drive 3x the nameplate rating. This is where the inertial or a rotating machine becomes a big deal. Your battery may be double the cost with 1/6th the capacity and you still have to pay to charge it.

Help us out here Tug. Here's the frame 9: https://www.gevernova.com/gas-power/products/gas-turbines
The only 1400 MW units in the US are the steam units at Palo Verde. Around a 100 yds long and rotating mass of around 750 tons. Now that is inertia!

 

[TugboatEng]

The frame series turbines are not aero derivative. Only the LM series are if I am not mistaken.

MechinNC, the grid stability contribution necessary only needs seconds.

The 3x surge has more to do with the quality/capability of the voltage regulator than the generator itself.