Air India 787 crashes on take off 1

[LittleInch]

A full 787-8 has crashed shortly after take off in ahmedabad.

Basically barely got off the ground then look like its trying to land in this video.

Air India flight to London Gatwick crashes in Ahmedabad with more than 240 people onboard – latest updates

Plane for flight AI171 was carrying 242 people including 169 Indians and 53 Britons, says Air India

www.theguardian.com

Specualtion that they pulled flaps up instead of gear up and basically didn't have enough lift so it looks like a gentle stall right into a built up area.

Looks to be flaps up, slats/ nose flaps down and gear down which is very odd.

 

[kontiki99]

Given how recent the event and how modern and complicated the aircraft I can't imagine anyone even bothering to comment. Depending on how the operator has it set up there is no doubt a ton of data to review in addition to a long list of standard forensic verifications that need to be made on the remains.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Seems someone walked away from the crash.

Reports a loud bang then the crash.

"A British father has miraculously survived the Air India plane disaster believed to have claimed the lives of hundreds of people in India. Vishwash Kumar Ramesh, 40, spoke from the safety of a hospital bed after escaping from the fallen Gatwick-bound Flight 171 this morning. The passenger, who was in seat 11A when the plane came down in a residential area of Gujarat, recalled: 'Thirty seconds after take-off, there was a loud noise and then the plane crashed. It all happened so quickly." source Reuters

 

[Eufalconimorph]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ahmedabad/comments/1l9i1ga/om_shanti_to_everyone

Another video with sound, that *does* sound like a RAT deployed.

But I agree with kontiki99, it's way too early to tell much of anything useful. The causes of the crash will likely be found, since it was low speed the FDR & CVR will almost certainly have survived. There's a lot of confusing and contradictory stuff getting thrown around right now, as is usual with any major news story. Collecting possible evidence is useful, but speculation varying from "dual engine failure for some reason" to "pilot error" is just too broad to be satisfying. Could be the classic "engine failed due to FOD, pilots shut off the wrong engine", could be "someone forgot to deploy flaps & the warning system failed", could be "both engines failed due to FOD", could be "critical flaw in the engines or control systems caused both to fail simultaneously without any FOD", or all sorts of things in between. We can conclusively say that the plane crashed just after takeoff, that it didn't appear to be capable of maintaining its climb, and that almost everyone on board died. Beyond that it's just guessing.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

That does sound like the rat is out... Only heard it once on real life in 24 years.

The automatic trigger for that is complete electrical failure. To turn both engines off is almost impossible to do by accident.

 

[XR250]

A British Airways 777 crashed short of the runway at Heathrow. This was due to icing in the fuel system and drove a pretty simple design change. There were no fatalities but there were some serious injuries.
Another 777 crashed while landing at San Francisco due to pilot errors. I don't think anyone died in the crash but a couple of passengers died during the emergency response.
I think there was a third crash during takeoff in Dubai or somewhere over there where the pilots retracted the landing gear a little too early when the ambient temperature was extremely high causing a loss of lift. I think a firefighter died during that incident.
A couple were shot down, MH370 was a 777 and a few were lost without injuries due to incidents on the ground.
That's still a pretty good record for a model that's been around for about 30 years.

Hmm, maybe I searched on 787. Sounds like only one was the fault of the plane, however.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

787 had battery issues which it was grounded for.

But not much else.

If a li ion battery blew up i have zero clue if that could cause the fuel valves to close.

 

[TugboatEng]

It appears that all of the electrical power of the 787 routes through the Aft Electrical Equipment Bay. The main backup battery is forward. However, the APU start battery is in the Aft EE bay. The batteries are Li-Ion type. Traditionally, airplanes use ni-cad batteries. The survivor said he heard a loud bang before the crash. Maybe the bang came from the Aft EE bay.

787 Electrical System - Boeing 787 Updates

Boeing has formed teams consisting of hundreds of engineering and technical experts who are working around the clock to get the 787 back to flight status, and all of us continue to assist the NTSB and other government agencies in the 787 investigations. Get to know our teams and people.

787updates.newairplane.com

Batteries and Advanced Airplanes - Boeing 787 Updates

Boeing has formed teams consisting of hundreds of engineering and technical experts who are working around the clock to get the 787 back to flight status, and all of us continue to assist the NTSB and other government agencies in the 787 investigations. Get to know our teams and people.

787updates.newairplane.com

 

[1503-44]

Runway is 3500m (11500ft) and the dust cloud after rotation seems to say they used every inch of it. FlightRadar24 corrected their initial position to show they used the full runway. There appears to be a missing ADSB transmission before receiving a position much farther down the runway.

Was it a kinetic launch? Lots of mush at the high point. Unusual that the time from rotation to to peak altitude is very close to the descent time to crash. Unusually parabolic trajectory.

Lots of speculators saying lo/no power both engines. When they nosed up just before crashing, they got nothing.

 

[Tomfh]

If the engines failed (bird strike or whatever), then why radio silence so shortly after the incident? Something must have gone on with electrics?

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Definitely something up with electrics.

Normally the No1 radio is wired to the emergency battery bus.

But the crew might have been too busy to think to use it.

It's reported and you can get the recording of the mayday radio call.

There seems to be multiple issues but what's the primary issue we will have to wait to find out from the black boxes.

 

[LittleInch]

There's a lot of chatter about whether the RAT deployed, but what is pretty clear is that they seem to have lost power / thrust at the critical point just after rotation and lift off.

Now why is very unclear.

Pilot error,
Unexpected control action,
Electrical failure,
Damage to engines (no visible evidence so far)
Fuel issue (quality or sudden shut off)

It still seems like they took off with not much flap set but looking at the info available it seems they often use flap 5 on take off which is barely visible. The 787seems to have a reputation for using a lot of runway so maybe nothing strange there.

Hopefully the FDR and the CVR kept recording unlike that jet in Korea.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

The lot of runway is a function of derated power.

We used an app to calculate the departure performance which optimises things for minimum engine wear and fuel used. And you do get very near the end when you rotate sometimes.

Flap 2 is our normal departure flap setting. Anything more than that is a drag flap.

The 787 will have modern recorders which have there own internal batteries. Although the equipment that is supplying the data might not have been powered.

 

[MintJulep]

Although the equipment that is supplying the data might not have been powered.

That in itself is useful data.

If big groups is things stop reporting at the same time you have a common point of failure.

 

[LittleInch]

This was an interesting photo of the flight deck ref the fuel cut off switches. Now it has been said that you need to lift and move, but not sure how much.

It kind of fits the pieces at the moment that somehow they managed to shut down both engines just after take off. Seems nuts, but feasible looking at this.

hope they release data soon as its clear its a major incident and people just don't like the idea that a modern airliner just fails to climb for no apparent reason.

 

[XR250]

Watched a Captain Steeeve video this morning. He thinks the co-pilot pulled the flaps up instead of the landing gear.

 

[LittleInch]

Well we don't know who was flying for one thing and whilst the flaps / gear up issue is definitely one line of enquiry, the sudden and quite apparent loss of thrust, plus the possibility that the RAM deployed plus the apparent ceasing of ADSB data whilst in flight tells me there is more to this than a simple gear / flaps mix up.

The fact the captain apparently radioed in a mayday could mean he was the PM.

My money at the moment is on accidental fuel cut off or something weird happening with the flight controls.

 

[Tomfh]

He thinks the co-pilot pulled the flaps up instead of the landing gear.

How does that kill the plane stone dead?

 

[LittleInch]

Less lift at low speed, but doesn't explain the Mayday or quite apparent loss of thrust / noise from the video at the end of the runway and apparently the surviving passenger has said all the lights went out and the emergency exit sign came on which happens on loss of electrical power.

This is looking more and more like some sort of dual engine failure at a point just after lift off.

I really hope the FDR actually tell us why.

 

[XR250]

This is looking more and more like some sort of dual engine failure at a point just after lift off.

Besides fuel contamination, what could cause this? Bird strike? Lithium battery explosion?

 

[LittleInch]

Flame out, fuel cut off switches, inadvertent fire extinguishers, possible combination of events leading to unknown control system shutdown.