Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
(OP)
Just started as an intermediate field engineer in a construction project in the USA.
during the offer negotiation, I was told there will be some overtime work and I will only get paid for 40 hours.
In the job offer letter, it states, 6 days per week and work up to 10 hours a day.
As the salary seems ok(based on MAX. 60 hours) and I don't have other better choices in Canada, I accepted it.
We start at 6:30am. The 1st day in this project, one of my coworkers asked the site manager what is the regular working hour, site managers didn't answer but only said, I work 12 hours each day.
Since then, everyone (2 site engineers+ 3 superintendents + safety officer + site manager) left work ~6:30pm everyday.
It means 6 x 12=72 hours per week.
Another engineer (senior level) complained about it with me privately (he has the same term in the offer letter), but nobody say anything publicly.
I can not survive in the current schedule. What should I do?
Should I talk to someone, like HR or site manager? The site manager knows my contract term. The HR is not here and I don't think he can really help.
Or I just leave earlier quietly everyday by myself? I also feel a little isolated if I am the only one leaves earlier.
I think the site manager just want to create an environment to force people work overtime (as it is a lump sump project). I don't want to challenge his management, but I can't work 12 hours everyday.
What other good ideas or solutions?
Thank you.
during the offer negotiation, I was told there will be some overtime work and I will only get paid for 40 hours.
In the job offer letter, it states, 6 days per week and work up to 10 hours a day.
As the salary seems ok(based on MAX. 60 hours) and I don't have other better choices in Canada, I accepted it.
We start at 6:30am. The 1st day in this project, one of my coworkers asked the site manager what is the regular working hour, site managers didn't answer but only said, I work 12 hours each day.
Since then, everyone (2 site engineers+ 3 superintendents + safety officer + site manager) left work ~6:30pm everyday.
It means 6 x 12=72 hours per week.
Another engineer (senior level) complained about it with me privately (he has the same term in the offer letter), but nobody say anything publicly.
I can not survive in the current schedule. What should I do?
Should I talk to someone, like HR or site manager? The site manager knows my contract term. The HR is not here and I don't think he can really help.
Or I just leave earlier quietly everyday by myself? I also feel a little isolated if I am the only one leaves earlier.
I think the site manager just want to create an environment to force people work overtime (as it is a lump sump project). I don't want to challenge his management, but I can't work 12 hours everyday.
What other good ideas or solutions?
Thank you.





RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
Second of all, read the thread below:
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=406077
Lastly, you are not obligated to provide anything more than you signed up for. DO NOT feel isolated for leaving "on time."
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
I don't want for now and I can't if it last for a few weeks/months.
why should I quit as I have already full filled my commitment if I work 10 hours per day?
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
However, I'm not saying don't do it, just pointing out that in the US it can be fairly easy for an employer to get rid of you (varies a little by state) compared to some other places, but I'm not familiar with Canadian employment law.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
I can. Like go to the town for a full hour lunch.
I don't want that but I need some times for my personal life after work, like go to ymca or watch tv at home.
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
That is why I feel isolated.
The management just want to create a culture and force everyone work 12 hours.
my bottom line is go back home to receive unemployment insurance OR work 10 hours efficiently and happily.
How can I make the 10-hours schedule as normal as possible?
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH, MA)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
But then, if your site manager is one of those dimwits who equates (other people's) effort with progress, you've backed a loser.
A.
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
Yes, this is abuse. Put up with it short term, prepare a back-up plan, and make as gracious an exit as they deserve. In my mind, what they deserve is one day you simply don't show up at all. What they are doing is wrong, disgusting and blackmail.
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
He's got an entire crew of Salaried Professionals working five half days and a full day for free every week.
That isn't going to change.
The folks who are being paid by the hour must be laughing themselves silly at you buffoons.
I'll bet the company is not even providing catered onsite meals in partial recompense.
I'm only conflicted about whether you should tell prospective employers that you were so easily taken advantage of.
On the one hand, it marks you as a Team Player.
On the other hand, it also marks you as a fool.
(*) I often use Top Management as a pejorative, as in this case.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
in the mean time,
commit to learning every possible thing you can re engineering and construction from everyone there, wringing all the knowledge and insight you can from the position, especially the old-timers there,
commit to massive self-improvements in personal productivity, don't let your peer's pace set your pace
don't let their ick stick to you.
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
I have per Diem as it is a field work. Considering the exchange rate, the current salary for 60 hours (not 72) is acceptable.
During the interview, they told me there will be some unpaid OT. From the job offer, I didn't expect anything more than 10 hours/day except some emergency situation.
After I started, I learned that the site manager and project manager(in home office)want to finish the project by Nov 1st rather than Dec 20th as the original planning.
The site manager is a tough senior guy, yes, he is kind of blackmailing us, but he also stays here 13/14 hours each day.
I can tell the power of the group culture/environment is really strong.
Because the manager stays longer and everyone else stays ~12 hours, it make me feel maybe I am a bad ass, maybe this is the right/expected schedule/performance for the construction project like this. I feel confused. I am thinking if I comply with the schedule for a few days, I will be just like other team members and believe that is the right schedule.
I don't want to judge his choice, maybe he will have a big bonus, maybe he really loves the work and has nothing to do back to motel. But, it is just not what I expected and learned during the interview. I just want to finish my work and leave earlier quietly.
I have done like this for 2 days and feel a little bit isolated.
I am waiting for someone to talk to me ...
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
Your agreement was for up to 10 hours a day, so leave no later than somewhere between the minimum required and the 10th hour every day. If (when) confronted, make sure you have a copy of the offer document to produce which states as such and stand your ground on never working over 60 hours and let things fall where they may.
Your site manager may have incentives to work like a slave, such as a performance bonus based on the project success, making it in his best interest to attempt slave driving the rest of the team to achieve his goals.
My BIL is working in Alberta O&G as a bus mechanic and does 7x12 for 2 weeks alternating the schedule every other 2 weeks. At the end of each month he puts in about the same amount of time as a 8-5 worker doing 5 days a week so the schedule is fair. But, you're not getting the time off to compensate for the weeks with long hours which makes it unfair.
I also suggest you read the employment rules for the province you are working in. In Ontario, there are laws which limit the hours worked to 48 unless you agree to more hours in writing, and even then you can revoke agreeing to work over 48 hours by giving 2 weeks written notice.
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
I am in the States now. The state which I work in doesn't require employer to pay OT for professional positions.
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
Read the attached link, if you hit more than 4 bullet points, get your resume cleaned up, because you are leaving.
B.E.
You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
Personally, any company with a full-on "HR department", is too big to treat its employees as human beings, so it's likely too big for me to work for. But to each their own.
The only one I think is dead wrong in that link is the mention of progressive discipline. That's necessary for a company unless they don't mind paying a severance to people who they have to dismiss with cause. Depending on your jurisdiction, that may not be an issue at all- everybody gets a severance, even if dismissed with cause. Some firms are happy to pay people off even if they, say, catch an employee stealing or committing fraud- something that would be instant cause for dismissal without requiring progressive discipline. But in a lot of cases, you do need to ratchet up the attention to a particular employee's problem in a systematic manner. And sometimes, it works- you don't just save yourself a severance, you "repair" something that's wrong with an employee by getting them the attention they need to get the issue resolved. So a mention of having a progressive discipline policy wouldn't be an instant reason for me to run out of an interview. But if the employee handbook mentioned compelled, uncompensated overtime? I'd hightail it out of there in mid-sentence!
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
I've now done that twice in the last couple of months - 3 times overall since I've worked here.
I drove to work the long way today so I could hit a different gas station - too embarrassing to go back to that one.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
Professional and Structural Engineer (ME, NH, MA)
American Concrete Industries
www.americanconcrete.com
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
On the subject of progressive discipline, I found that as an employer, this tool gets used most, as a means of ratcheting up attention to tardy employees, more than others. Although I feel that in the case of the OP some tardiness could be justified if he is putting in those kind of hours.
With other offenses like stealing, other than pens and paperclips , the offender should be shown the door at once.
B.E.
You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
It sounds like a piss take but ...
Burnout is far worse than being fired, you might never be able to bring your self to work as an engineer again.
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
Coming to the 12 hours...
ok so if you see people jumping from the 5th floor (without parachute), you say I'll do the same or I will do even better: I'll jump from the 7th floor...?
so unless your are putting on orbit some amazing piece of art... a huge step for mankind....working 72 hours/week is just pure madness.
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
Isn't the genesis of an amazing piece of art a little bit of madness?
And putting something in orbit and a huge step for mankind is running on adrenaline and a focused purpose.
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
IF You work for a mad-man who is a workaholic, then they expect the same of others... simply because 'they work-like-that'. These folks have no life and EXPECT the same dedication from their subordinates.
Many studies have shown that ~50-to-56-hrs/week is a sustainable pace... If employees are motivated and are supported in various ways [IE: 'no-fault' time-off for emergencies, etc] and are treated professionally. However, even the best employees work deteriorates proportionally above 56-hrs/week... its just not sustainable... especially under professional stress. Even combat troops have to be relieved [rotated] every 2-to-3 months for R&R, so they maintain a sharp edge... a dull edge can lead to catastrophe. WARNING: One of the aspects You face is on-the-job safety... which can be grossly affected by exhaustion... especially across-the-board.
Suggestion. When my office over-seas required 12-hr/day coverage, here is how two of us engineers worked out the schedule, IE: We staggered our hours for full coverage...
We worked 9-hr days, which included 1-hour lunch break. I worked from 0600 to 1500; my partner worked from 0900 to 1800. During this time there was always someone available. IF push-came-to-shove we had no problem extending our work-day and working sporadically into the weekend, on-call. Generally speaking from 0600--0800 I was rarely busy... and like-wise my partner was rarely busy from 1600--1800. When one of us was on vacation, the remaining guy changed his work schedule to 0730--1630... with presumption that over-time would be relatively minimal to factor-in, was relatively 'fair' between us and was acceptable to site leaders.
I suspect that You could show how work demand is minimal during the early and late edges of this weird working-shift of Yours... and show 'good-enough coverage' by just one of you being around early and late.
Now, IF work-site managers won't help You by adjusting shifts and liberalizing emergency time [especially during off-demand hours], then You will turn-out just like a friend of mine who tried to handle a mad-man shift similar-to-this... and was a basket case after just 6-months... and quit after 9-months when his wife and several of us intervened.
My Dad once stated the military situation he was often-in like this: "GIs will give their ALL in blood/sweat/tears/life... So when it safe to stand-down, get-out-of-their way and let the guys have a break. They deserve it."
NOTE.
IF the managers You work for are royal-*ss-h*les, then bail-out... You are a tool to be used-up and thrown-away when worn out.
IF this is the case, then consider this:
Naaaa better not say what would happen to these managers if they were military superiors in Combat and acted like this...Regards, Wil Taylor
o Trust - But Verify!
o We believe to be true what we prefer to be true. [Unknown]
o For those who believe, no proof is required; for those who cannot believe, no proof is possible. [variation,Stuart Chase]
o Unfortunately, in science what You 'believe' is irrelevant. ["Orion"]
o Learn the rules like a pro, so you can b
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
Cheers
Greg Locock
New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
See attached.
B.E.
You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
I'd think the $47,476 probably excludes most engineers in most areas, but newbies and/or lower cost areas may be impacted.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
Even in a low cost of living area like Oklahoma, fresh grads make more. The only engineering graduates that are making that little are working as technicians, not doing engineering.
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
Proud Member of the Reality-Based Community..
To the Toolmaker, your nice little cartoon drawing of your glass looks cool, but your solid model sucks. Do you want me to fix it, or are you going to take all week to get it back to me so I can get some work done?
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
But, no. Did my share of 52-60 hour weeks on salary.
Now am on 7x12 and (less often) 6x10 hour weeks. But that's while on a job order, on the site during an outage. When that is finished (3-6 weeks) you are finished. You are back on 40 hours at the office, or are on wait time at home, or are not on paid hours at all. More, when on 60 or 84 hour weeks, every hour is paid as either straight time (40), overtime Saturdays and weekdays) at 1.25 rate, or on double time (Sundays). With 2x 12 hour shifts, you need a 1/2 hour turnover meeting with your opposite shift engineer (or the night crew - depending on what is working), and then you are off.
It happens, but you try hard not to bring work with you.
And that is hard when you are calculating, designing.
I agree with the others above. You "can do it". For a short time, maybe you have to do it. But, no at that rate for free.
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
If the boss it driving for a bonus is he sharing it with you?
Good luck
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
Quit after two months as I found another job. but everyone else seems still there.
Past: Oil & Gas industry in Canada.
Present: desalination pump manufacturer in the US
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)
Glad it worked out, you deserved better than that nonsense.
Keep in touch.
RE: Need suggestion for UNPAID OVERTIME (72 hours a week!)