Overtime
Overtime
(OP)
How's overtime typically work with the firms you work with?
I currently am a civil PE that works for an A/E firm and a majority of us are salary. We're overly busy with too much work right now. We are not paid for overtime, so I generally do not work overtime unless it's necessary (i.e., board meetings, client meetings, etc.) that requires me to be on the road. To be honest, my brain is generally fried after 8 hrs of design if I'm sitting at my desk.
We were told recently that we had to work overtime to meet an unrealistic deadline for our architect. After checking around, it appears other firms within the state pay straight time for anything over 40 hrs that's billable. Shouldn't that be the norm? We work on an hourly basis. The billable hours over 40 hrs aren't really subjected to overhead costs, so the company is making money during this time.
Should I work overtime without any compensation? If I work overtime, I have to pay extra for my 9 month old son to be at daycare longer. So technically, I'd be losing money.
I currently am a civil PE that works for an A/E firm and a majority of us are salary. We're overly busy with too much work right now. We are not paid for overtime, so I generally do not work overtime unless it's necessary (i.e., board meetings, client meetings, etc.) that requires me to be on the road. To be honest, my brain is generally fried after 8 hrs of design if I'm sitting at my desk.
We were told recently that we had to work overtime to meet an unrealistic deadline for our architect. After checking around, it appears other firms within the state pay straight time for anything over 40 hrs that's billable. Shouldn't that be the norm? We work on an hourly basis. The billable hours over 40 hrs aren't really subjected to overhead costs, so the company is making money during this time.
Should I work overtime without any compensation? If I work overtime, I have to pay extra for my 9 month old son to be at daycare longer. So technically, I'd be losing money.





RE: Overtime
xnuke
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RE: Overtime
Good luck,
Dave
Thaidavid
RE: Overtime
In the office I am currently in, many are working 50 to 70 hours at 40 hour pay. Well, I am very sure when the money runs out, they will be on the street with me, maybe a week or two later, but so be it. I get paid for working 60 hours when I do, and 40 when I work 40, and 20 when I work 20…
IMO if the company is billing your time, they should pay you for it. NB that can be a two-way street, they may also cut back your hours when things get thin, or just run you off, but at least you did not leave any money on the table.
I started off after college thinking things would be fair and work out, but they don’t. A seasoned engineer let me on to the Golden Rule, that is those with the gold make the rules, and change them at will. So, I save up like the squirrels, preparing for the worst, and it always works out.
Good luck RedBaurer, the job market is really tough and employers know it. I am looking at having the summer without much work. No real solid prospects in sight. God willing that will change soon.
RE: Overtime
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
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RE: Overtime
This was never really an issue previously because I never had the workload to work past 40 hrs per week. I've worked for this company for 2 years. In the past 6-9 months my responsibilities have grown (without any pay increase) and now I'm falling behind. This was due to my previous supervisor leaving and I absorbed some of his projects. If they gave decent bonuses, overtime pay wouldn't be a problem. However, they only give $1k-$2k and everyone gets the same bonus whether you're a CAD tech or PE like myself. If things don't change soon, I'll be looking elsewhere.
RE: Overtime
Here it's generally the load up the cart and damn the mules philosophy hence one of my immediate colleagues just quit without another job lined up.
However, about 6 years ago under a former Tech Director they were really hot to get some CAD concepts* done and I basically bid how long I thought it would take to do the job (80 hrs) and got a 'bonus' that equated to straight time. That same pay check I got a smaller bonus for my part in a successful product release, and a 3rd mystery bonus that neither my direct boss or tech director could identify where it came from! That was probably my biggest pay check ever!
(I just ECO released the indirect descendant of those CAD concepts last week so I guess it wasn't all wasted money for my employer.)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Overtime
I got my degree in 1971 and when I started to work full time in July of that year I was put on salary (previous to that I had worked summers as a draftsman paid by the hour). We didn't get paid overtime, but part of your annual increase was supposed to be based on how much extra time you contributed to the company (i.e. worked extra hours). I had no problems with that arrangement, for about a month and half. It was then (I'm sure that some of you may remember this) that President Nixon announced his 'Economic Stabilization Act' that was going to impose a temporary (90 day) 'Wage and Price freeze'. When the end of the year came and the wage freeze was still in effect (so much for it being 'temporary'), our management decided that all salaried personnel, who were NOT managers or supervisors, would be converted over to hourly since you could still get paid overtime and so I went back on hourly. Now this worked out pretty good since as a machine designer I had to spend a lot of time in the field during start-ups and upgrades and so the overtime could be substantial (we didn't even care much about the fact that annual raises were reduced to almost nothing, at least it was in my case). Anyway, when Congress finally realized that the 'Economic Stabilization Act' was a failure they let it expire in the Spring of 1974. Now my company decided to keep things working as it was until 1978 when I was promoted to being a Program Manager in the R&D group and so I was put back on salaried but I got a big raise so I didn't complain too much.
Now later, after I changed jobs and went to work for McDonnell Douglas, while I was again salaried and not paid over time, there were conditions under which they would compensate you for extra works worked if it was either billable or was demand as critical to meet the success of a contract. Now it was straight time only after your 40 hours and then it was limited to no more than what the maximum salary was for your particular job tile. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view) I worked for a boss who had managed to get my compensation to near the max so the few times that I did get a chance to earn the 'extra time' I would hit the ceiling pretty quick, but it was better then nothing.
Now that was back in the mid-80's and when our division was sold to EDS, that was the last overtime I ever saw. But with EDS we did get to work 'flex-time' and we had bonus plans, even for people not working under a compensation plan (i.e. non-sales), so the people who put in the extra effort had a way of getting their reward eventually.
John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
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RE: Overtime
It is a system that doesn't foster resentment (well, not much) for working extra time. You work, you get time off or money. I don't know why everyone doesn't do it that way.
RE: Overtime
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Overtime
John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
RE: Overtime
Last three jobs were hourly with varying conditions for overtime pay. No. 5 - straight time for hours over 42 hours per week as long as the project was still profitable. No. 6 - straight time for any OT hours. No. 7 - straight time if your billable hours were greater than 40 for that week. If not, you could bank the extra hours to use as additional personal time that year.
gjc
RE: Overtime
I have seen salaried workers taking advantage of the system as well as hourly workers. I have seen companies take advantage of both as well.
Salaried employees can work less than they are expected and still get the same pay. Companies can "force" salaried employees to work more than they are supposed to and get the same pay.
If the workload is lighter, a salaried employee should not complain (unless it is so low they may not be employed) - because hopefully the workload will pick up and they will need to work more, but not be paid more. I have been there.
Hourly employees can work longer (less efficient) and get paid more. There were certain employees that always seemed to be working overtime, but the workload was not as heavy. If they get time and a half - I am not sure how the company bills that extra half since it was not actual time worked. I have been told it is easier to bill and to track it when the employees are salaried.
RE: Overtime
We're not talking about the occasional bump of a few hours or maybe a week to meet a deadline, to learn something new or to fix something you screwed up. That's just common courtesy for an employer, in return for taking a long lunch or a medical appointment in the middle of the day.
The only time you should work consistent uncompensated overtime is for some kind of compensation: straight or O/T pay, a bonus, shares, options, or time in lieu that they have to pay out if you don't get to use it.
If your services are being provided on a reimbursable basis to the client and you are not compensated for every hour you work in some way (see above), that is straight up theft.
RE: Overtime
Fairly charging productive hours is not only ethical, but it's responsible. Losing money on a project is a helpful tool on estimating and management techniques. It's the best sign there is that you're doing something wrong.
And making money by abusing employees is short sighted.
RE: Overtime
RE: Overtime
While I understand the theory of billing hours to projects, especially in a shop that only sells services, in practice it's always a sort of management by the nuhmbers that leads to lower/middle management massaging the numbers.
This is a problem for us engineers/drafters etc because it's standing in the way of a proper time management system. So it's up to each of us individually to keep track of OT and negotiate with our bosses time off in lieu. Which so far was not a big problem, but still.
(I work in Germany, over here OT has to be paid or be able to taken as time off (unbless you're a manager), AFAIK clauses like "OT is paid with the salary etc." don't hold up in court.)
RE: Overtime
As for the PM issue above, it's certainly something that's important to keep track of. For everyone, not just PMs. I'd actually be wary of companies that limit the dispersion of this information to management and PMs. Think it's important for everyone to know how we're doing and where we might need to improve. Everyone in our company, principals to receptionists, has access not only to our budgeted hours (if a formal budget was done, hopefully it was) and the current amount of billed hours, but also to our signed proposals/agreements. Have personally found it helps to breed ownership and responsibility. Everyone knows (or can know) exactly what we're doing, exactly what we're being compensated for it, and exactly how we're doing compared to the amount we're getting compensated. We're a smaller company, so it's easier. But think it's something that a big company should aspire to responsibly disseminate to their workforce as well.
RE: Overtime
Hourly employees nonunion, some companies no overtime pay, comp time instead. Others pay time and a half for more than the standard work week. Some companies work 4- 10 hour days for a 4 day work week with any overtime on the 5th day.
Union companies, hourly time and a half for everything over, either the standard work day, or the standard work week. Double time paid after working more than twice normal work day. Double time for working on paid holiday, triple time for working more than normal work week into and across paid holiday. It should be noted that most trade unions hate nonstandard work weeks, and will resist them tooth and nail in union contracts.
Salaried pay small companies. A certain amount of uncompensated overtime expected and factored into the salary.
Large companies with work agreements, Salary plus overtime pay after a certain number of hours, comp days allowed instead of overtime hours.
The standard work week varies by country from 40 to 36 ½ hours.
B.E.
You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.
RE: Overtime
If you want overtime pay, go get a non-professional job. If you are a professional engineer, you should be working on salary and putting in the hours necessary to get the job done. Yes, it seems unfair at times; however, it demeans the profession to do less. Unfortunately more and more engineering corporations are being run by bean counters who promote this atmosphere of commodity engineering. I don't subscribe to that and will not do so. To some this may seem an archaic principle, but I'm convinced that caving in to this philosophy of non-professional attitude is what has gotten us to this point of even having to discuss it.
RE: Overtime
Then again I'm not a PE, I'm in exempt in a field where there's almost no direct benefit to being PE.
Of course being the resident contrarian around here molten metal & Jed seem a little too idealistic for me too.
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Overtime
We bonus heavily on a quarterly basis based on performance. The size of our jobs are such that one engineer is typically doing the work (with oversight / QC from PM). We track the profitability of each job and can then determine the profitability of each engineer. This is used as the basis for the bonus adjusted as necessary to account for the intangibles (attitude, quality of work, etc)
The bonus is not dependent on the hours worked but instead on the work executed. You could get a large bonus by working a lot of hours inefficiently or less hours really efficiently. To me this is most fair to everyone.
I don't like the idea of overtime. It rewards time in the chair and not necessarily productivity.
RE: Overtime
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Overtime
I'm pretty sure that neither you nor Greg get taken advantage of for the long term. We all do for the short term. There are many ways to compensate for extra effort, I just believe that simple overtime pay on a routine basis is not the answer to that for engineers, exempt or not.
RE: Overtime
First salaried job: worked lots of hours including at home out of my briefcase (before computers). Kept track of the hours so that projects could be billed. No holiday on Good Friday so that we could catch up with the Architect's that had the day off. Year end bonus was typically about 50% of my "hourly" pay - salary / 2080 hours.
Second salaried job: worked 50 to 60 hours per week. Salary based on 39 hour weeks (4 8's + 7 on Friday). Bonuses were better than previous job, but still did not equal average hourly wage. Four of us structural engineers in department and two of us worked far more hours than the others. Our reward was being given more work because we got more done than the other two.
Were reviewed and rated on a "Management by Objectives" process. When you accomplished more that became your normal and became next years expectations. Probably some MBA type of BS.
Made up my mind that I would never work as salaried again. Management did not care and was obviously oblivious to what was going on within the entire Engineering Department. I wish I knew what their bonuses were. Probably way better than mine.
gjc
RE: Overtime
In almost any large company, HR, is the driver for most salary, and overtime decisions, this in turn is driven by upper management who do, or do not, keep these people in check.
The underlying principal is to get as much, work out of you, for the least cost to the company. This in turn is driven by the economy and the labor market.
If there are a number of suitably qualified people available to do the kind of work you are doing, then salaries offered will be comparatively low and the company will be strict on what they will and will not offer. After all if you do not like it, you can easily be replaced. As the labor market tightens excess application of this kind of logic results in people leaving and taking jobs elsewhere.
A tactic often employed when a company realizes that a worker they perceive as "useful" is serious about leaving, is to offer to match the salary offered by the competitor. This can be dangerous if you stay, because now you are branded as “disloyal" and whilst HR may be offering you a better salary and work conditions, they will be working behind your back to replace you at the first opportunity.
Not all companies fit this mold ,there are companies where the CEO realizes that people are not, just numbers and restrains HR, making them treat, his/her workers salaried and hourly fairly.
B.E.
You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.
RE: Overtime
I never said that the compensation offered by an employer to their salaried engineers in return for overtime had to be equal to straight time much less time and a half for the hours put in. But it has to be more than ZERO, or the people asking for it are unethical and the people accepting it are fools. It absolutely can, and should, be tied to the financial performance of the business entity. Overtime on the part of professional staff is a "sweat equity" investment in the company, and should be viewed as such. Personally I am very selective about where I make my investments.
If you don't compensate for overtime, you can't expect it much less can you compel it at a condition of employment when it is needed. To do so is unethical by definition- it's theft, unless you don't think that the services being offered are of value!
I've worked as an engineer for over 25 years, and I'm licensed, though that license doesn't mean much here in practical terms. The first two years, I worked like a madman for nothing other than salary. Every year since then, I've been paid in some way for the overtime I've put in. I honestly haven't done the math on it, but I sincerely doubt I've ever made less than straight time for my O/T. If it ever came close enough for me to need to do the math on it, you can bet that I'd reduce how much I put in, or demand more compensation.
Even though I'm compensated for it when it is necessary, I do not put in O/T unless it is truly necessary. A lot of people are covering for their own inadequacy, real or perceived, as performers or as managers, by putting in all that extra time. Others do it because they love their jobs and don't see the downside of working for free. Others do it because they don't have a life outside work, and boy I can tell you that's an autocatalytic situation if you live it for a while. Unless they're self-employed, all these people need to open their eyes.
Want to volunteer? There are plenty of worthy charities to volunteer for- people who are really making a difference in society. Don't waste your time volunteering for a for-profit enterprise.
RE: Overtime
MM...I agree with this. Maybe I'm just quirky in my thought process on this; however, while money has never been my primary motivator, I've found that it has followed my efforts. When I was in the corporate world, my concern was being treated fairly as compared to others. There were times when I called them on that issue....not being paid to performance and stature. There were times when my timing just sucked such as when I worked for a large international engineering firm and was promoted to a lower officer position (technical, not management) only to find out that a couple of months earlier they had discontinued the vehicle allowance for that level of officer! Bottom line...it was then just a title that looked slightly better on my resume, but no tangible benefit. When I was then promoted to a "real" officer level, it turned out to be the same! That time, it did help in that when I decided to leave the company for a smaller company, they gave a fair amount of weight to that resume tidbit.
RE: Overtime
That second position I was referencing was the best job I ever had, but the management had no clue what was going on in the in-house engineering department. We did not keep time sheets and therefore our efforts were never attributed to any specific projects. We were considered overhead.
We had a 70+ person engineering department with about a 50/50 split on engineers and drafter/designers. The Civil/Structural department had 4 engineers and 4 drafters. Projects were assigned to individuals for each fiscal year with no consideration as to schedules, etc. The one constant was that all of the Mills had a downtime around the 4th of July so most of the "big" projects had that as the target for installation. Other projects that did not affect the whole mill would be scheduled so as to avoid that period.
At one time, I was terribly overloaded and my next door neighbor was looking for something to do. We both went to our supervisor and asked if he and I could trade projects so that he would take over one of my spring projects and I would take one of his fall projects. Denied, with no explanation.
When the company was purchased by a foreign company, the first thing they did was get rid of engineering as we were overhead. I went to work for consulting engineering companies in the area. The first thing that was noted by the mill managers was that engineering on projects was very expensive. Marked up wage rates, mileage, meals, etc. They had no idea what we had contributed to the company.
Maybe if we had tracked our hours, and thereby costs, to specific projects "management" would have had some clue as to our value.
gjc
RE: Overtime
you have just described a pitfall of upper management being screened from or otherwise not knowing what a particular department does for a company.
B.E.
You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.
RE: Overtime
If it does, I wish my employers good luck getting that OT money back from my wife.
RE: Overtime
It's like a notorious thief holding presentations about honesty...
Dejan IVANOVIC
Process Engineer, MSChE
RE: Overtime
That is correct. But the old adage, "A pat on the back doesn't pay the bills" always trumps that argument. It's earned me some pretty good smirks over the years.
RE: Overtime
RE: Overtime
Another adage I repeat often is to paraphrase and extend something I once read, which I think was originally written by Scott Adams: all contributions of time, effort, dedication, energy, resourcefulness, innovation etc. etc. that you make to an employer, will be accepted. Not compensated for, or even noticed, but definitely accepted!
RE: Overtime
Now I will give an hour to an hour and half OT for nothing if I think the project merits it but anything over that, I expect compensation.
RE: Overtime
If you don't compensate the employees, when they figure out you're (perennially) short staffed, they'll resent the extra unpaid time, which is likely to reflect on work quality.
RE: Overtime
(It's a bit more complex than that but definitely a major factor.)
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Overtime
The smart, capable ones who can find other work will leave in droves. The dumb or lazy drones will stay. Putting out 30 or 25 or 20 hours of output in 50-60 hours at their desks is a mark of pride for some people. For others, only having 30 hours of work to do in a 40 hour week for any more than a week or two is absolute torture. Perhaps they lack creativity- I can always find something productive to do!
RE: Overtime
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Overtime
RE: Overtime
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?
RE: Overtime
When times were extra busy, more than 40, all hours were considered part of the job. Same goes for lean periods when salary still came, yet production was light. Bonuses always were considered the frosting on the cake. Maybe a stupid position, but I was a very happy camper those years. Made many friends in the engineering and construction community.
Then comes the being self employed period. That no accounting of extra hours attitude carried on through. Weekends and nights were very busy early on and I never counted hours, just the nice bank account. Looking back the only change would be to go self employed earlier.
RE: Overtime
When I first started out I worked for the Federal Government (DoD). My department was split into about 60 branches. The entire department had 600 engineers, with about 1 middle manager for every 10 engineers. Each branch could be forced to work overtime based on production of the branch as a whole. I "worked" many 50-60 hour weeks even though my work was done by about 20 hours in. Everyone was paid hourly, and time + 0.5 for OT. I found out after a while that some of these guys routinely under-produced to ensure that we were working forced overtime. It was disgusting abuse of the OT system, just to pad paychecks. So I have seen it at its worst.
I left the government ASAP, and went to work for a small firm (I am part owner now) that is/was run by an owner who was a contractor prior to becoming an engineer. He based a lot of the company processes on his prior business. We were and still are hourly employees paid or comped time and half for every second over 40 hours a week. Generally, it has been a great success. The key though is that the company is small so I know if someone is producing at the right level. We build OT into some budgets (with client knowledge) and in others we swallow it to meet a deadline or because there is some other need. IMO it is much easier to run a quality lean staff who likes the extra money for OT. Occasionally the bean-counters whine and ask after employees, or why did we not build in the OT to the project, but sometimes it is necessary to understand that the clients paying the bills are what keep the business going, not the bean counters squeezing staff.
Even our managers/owners get OT pay if we are billing a job. I was absolutely shocked I had done when I reviewed my W-2 last month. This year I will only elect for comp time and surf more when I can.
RE: Overtime