I am in the process of investigatin
I am in the process of investigatin
(OP)
I am in the process of investigating a cooling system problem in a 2000 KW diesel generator set. The generator set consumes belts in less than 150 hours. I have found a few issues that are problematic(drive undersized, poor sheave mounting, sheave to small). I can't however get the fan curve or any air requirements for the radiator from either supplier. I am being told that this data is not normally released to customers. Is this normal industy practice? Is there a good book that addresses industrial cooling systems and fan application?
RE: I am in the process of investigatin
RE: I am in the process of investigatin
Belt drive to fans with these engines can be tricky. Most locomotives I've seen use electric fan drive (the fans are remote from the engine, and operate in a different plane). One locomotive (a Baldwin AS-16 with original DeLaVergne engine) had a strikingly large number of V-belts between crank pulley and water pump -- I didn't count the exact number but it was quite a few.
Be sure you've debugged everything mechanical before going back to specs... no insult intended to professional capabilities ;-}
Is the water pump on this genset driven by the fan's belt?
For the belts to be 'failing' at 150 hours is unusual. Are these standard V-belts or poly-V? What method are you using to tension them? I presume you have checked bearings, resistances, blade-to-shroud clearances, etc. and have confirmed that nothing obvious is contributing to load on the belts... Be aware that the failure might only show up at higher speed (e.g. fan nutation from a bad bearing) and, as with some driveshaft-bearing failures, might not expose itself to simple tests (like pulling on the fan to detect play). I tentatively rule out a fan-clutch problem simply because I can't see a way that a bad clutch would create both a "cooling problem" and a belt-wear problem at the same time -- but check it out anyway if you have one.
Be sure to check the internal profile of the pulley grooves. Wear here can eat belts fast, and 'reading between the lines' this genset may have eaten enough belts to cause pulley wear even if that weren't original contributing cause.
Potentially irrelevant anecdote: I was salmon-fishing, and walked in on some of the staff who couldn't keep the camp generator from cutting off. The unit was diesel-powered (about the size of a 6-71 IIRC although I don't remember the exact engine manufacturer) and the high-temp engine cutoff was pulling in -- staff was in the process of blocking this (!!!) out of frustration in finding a cause. Coolant was correct, fan drive intact, no visible obstructions in the cooling air intake or exhaust. Turned out there was a piece of screen that slipped across the radiator intake, not well-documented on the genset itself, and this was almost completely plugged with mosquitoes. Moral: be sure your core is actually seeing the right flow of cooling air, rather than just being sized correctly...
Answering the question you asked:
1. A request to a company for technical measurements of a piece of equipment you own should be met with courtesy. I specifically define that to include releasing technical information about size and capacity of cooling components. Whether or not "other customers" seldom "need" such information is completely irrelevant to YOU as a customer who does need such information.
2. There are very good texts on heat exchangers -- at least one of which (from MIT as I recall) has been published to the Web as a public service. Any one of these should contain both formulas and knowledge to determine heat rejection and airflow for a radiator core. You will need to know your thermostat setting and type (e.g., does it open completely when actuated, or does it throttle to maintain a particular temperature or range of temperatures across it)
3. Likewise for fan curves: fan manufacturers publish design guides that contain the formulas, and some of the discussions to use them best. I don't have references at hand, but have seen a number of these, including some historical ones from the turn of the century. Another potential reference source might be HVAC texts (rather than engine-related ones). You may not find as much sophisticated discussion of 'typical' engine fan types, as much of the 'action' for high-efficiency fans in HVAC involves large air masses at relatively low speed. On the other hand, some applications (such as ceiling fans for circulation) are now involving careful aerodynamics in blade design and optimal speed-range determination.
Hope some of this, at least, is helpful...
RME
RE: I am in the process of investigatin
To answer some of your questions:
16 cylinder 4 stroke engine RPM=1800, Fan RPM=900. The belts are synchronous (cogged
). The belts snap suddenly. The genset was built by a major manufacturer. The engine/alternator are standard pieces for this manufacturer, but the cooling system is a custom design. The engine crankshaft sprocket drives the fan sprocket via the cogged belt. There is one inside idler, used for tensioning, on the drive side of the belt. The fan and idler sprockets are mounted to a steel frame bolted to the floor of a shipping container. The radiator is bolted to this frame. The engine is mounted to its own steel “skid”. These two structures share little connection. No intentional provision for alignment was made by the packager. We must unbolt the radiator and sprocket structure and coerce them into alignment.
RE: I am in the process of investigatin
overmod,
This is not an EMD engine. We use remote radiators with electric motors to cool our EMD power plants. I have checked the things you mentioned and they seem to be ok. Thank you for your input!
RE: I am in the process of investigatin
RE: I am in the process of investigatin
RE: I am in the process of investigatin
This means that the engine is free to vibrate but the fan which it is driving is not. This could be where your problem lies.
RE: I am in the process of investigatin
RE: I am in the process of investigatin
You mean the same as a standard timing belt?
As stroker six mentioned, that was why I asked the questions. Was thinking torsional loads. And with a cogged belt that could be that case. You may want to go to multiple vee belts. They allow for slippage.
RE: I am in the process of investigatin
1. The fan is pulling a lot more load than the "standard" fan arrangement, which will change the properties of the torsional system.
2. The torsional damper is usually built into the crankshaft pulley system and maybe this has been adversely affected by the new fan drive system.
RE: I am in the process of investigatin
If the unit gets started often and if the generator starts running up to operational rpm directly, as some do, then there might be a lot more torque than the belts are calculated for during the startup. In this case maybe you should try V belts instead allowing for some slippage.
RE: I am in the process of investigatin
RE: I am in the process of investigatin
Looking at some catalogs on belt drives I wouldn't jump to conclusions based on the above at this stage. You may just have the wrong belt spec. with regards to type of reinforcement. I would contact people like gates.com and let them ask the right questions and see what they can come up with. If you see what is available and the multitude of options there must be a way, unless the cog wheels are just too narrow for the application. It would look pretty stupid if you went for V belts to discover later that cog belts was the right choice afterall but you only used belts with the wrong spec.